do we EXEC_BACKEND on Mac OS X?

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 01:05:54PM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

See the CAVEATS here:

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Darwin/Referenc
e/ManPages/man2/fork.2.html

Apparently fork() without exec() isn't all that well supported.

Noticed while perusing http://lwn.net/Articles/518306/

I think this comment is more relevant:

Ah, OK, I found this

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Da...

It seems that from 10.5 this caveat was added to the official OS
X documentation. In that light I think it's safest to conclude
that Apple realised fork() is hard (check out the long list
of things a current Linux fork does to retain sanity in the
face of threads, asynchronous I/O, capabilities and other fun
toys that didn't exist at the dawn of Unix) and decided they
don't care. It will probably work, but if it doesn't they aren't
interested in explaining why/ fixing the problem.

On balance I agree this makes OS X a pretty shoddy Unix, but
then, I would have been easily persuaded of that anyway.

I am hesitant to avoid fork() on OS/X until someone reports a problem;
the slowdown would be significant, and I don't think we use enough OS/X
libraries to cause a problem for us, though Bonjour might be a problem.

Anyway, good you asked and we should be aware of possible problems.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ It's impossible for everything to be true. +

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> writes:

See the CAVEATS here:
https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/fork.2.html

Apparently fork() without exec() isn't all that well supported.

This doesn't say fork() doesn't work. It says that Apple's framework
libraries aren't meant to work in a forked subprocess --- but we don't
use those.

Noticed while perusing
http://lwn.net/Articles/518306/

I'm afraid Brian was just looking for an excuse to dump on Apple. We
have a lot of years of Postgres experience showing that fork() works
fine on OS X.

regards, tom lane

I wrote:

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> writes:

Noticed while perusing
http://lwn.net/Articles/518306/

I'm afraid Brian was just looking for an excuse to dump on Apple. We
have a lot of years of Postgres experience showing that fork() works
fine on OS X.

BTW, I think the commenter at the bottom of the thread puts his finger
on the core of the real problem:

I'd wager most libraries are not fork safe, including such libraries
as SQLite as mentioned in the SQLite FAQ. Libraries that talk to the
outside world contain much state that is not safe to share.

To bring that closer to home, suppose you have a program with an open
database connection in libpq, and you fork(), and then parent and child
both try to use the connection. How well would that work? Is it the
fault of fork()?

I think Apple is just pointing out that their framework libraries have
similar issues.

regards, tom lane

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 12:41:37PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:

I wrote:

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> writes:

Noticed while perusing
http://lwn.net/Articles/518306/

I'm afraid Brian was just looking for an excuse to dump on Apple. We
have a lot of years of Postgres experience showing that fork() works
fine on OS X.

BTW, I think the commenter at the bottom of the thread puts his finger
on the core of the real problem:

I'd wager most libraries are not fork safe, including such libraries
as SQLite as mentioned in the SQLite FAQ. Libraries that talk to the
outside world contain much state that is not safe to share.

To bring that closer to home, suppose you have a program with an open
database connection in libpq, and you fork(), and then parent and child
both try to use the connection. How well would that work? Is it the
fault of fork()?

I think Apple is just pointing out that their framework libraries have
similar issues.

Yes, but those framework libraries are typically supposed to prevent
such problems from being seen by applications calling them. This is
certainly sloppy practice on Apple's part, and it leave us wondering if
we are using anything that might be a problem. The bottom line is that
we don't know.

Libraries are supposed to document these limitations, as we do with
libpq. I wonder if they just documented fork() and now don't feel they
need to document these limitations per-library.

Anyway, I agree that we need to see a failure before adjusting anything.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ It's impossible for everything to be true. +

Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:

Yes, but those framework libraries are typically supposed to prevent
such problems from being seen by applications calling them.

How exactly would a library prevent such problems? In particular,
let's see a proposal for how libpq might make it look like a fork
was transparent for an open connection.

This is
certainly sloppy practice on Apple's part, and it leave us wondering if
we are using anything that might be a problem. The bottom line is that
we don't know.

Libraries are supposed to document these limitations, as we do with
libpq. I wonder if they just documented fork() and now don't feel they
need to document these limitations per-library.

Do we know that they *didn't* document such issues per-library?
Mentioning the risk under fork() too doesn't seem unreasonable.

Not trying to sound like an Apple apologist, but I see a whole lot of
bashing going on here on the basis of darn little evidence.

regards, tom lane

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 01:53:28PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:

Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:

Yes, but those framework libraries are typically supposed to prevent
such problems from being seen by applications calling them.

How exactly would a library prevent such problems? In particular,
let's see a proposal for how libpq might make it look like a fork
was transparent for an open connection.

I guess that is impossible.

This is
certainly sloppy practice on Apple's part, and it leave us wondering if
we are using anything that might be a problem. The bottom line is that
we don't know.

Libraries are supposed to document these limitations, as we do with
libpq. I wonder if they just documented fork() and now don't feel they
need to document these limitations per-library.

Do we know that they *didn't* document such issues per-library?
Mentioning the risk under fork() too doesn't seem unreasonable.

Not trying to sound like an Apple apologist, but I see a whole lot of
bashing going on here on the basis of darn little evidence.

Well, ideally if Apple is going to brand a Unix function as unsafe, it
would be good to mention which libraries are unsafe. I have no idea if
they are documenting the problems in the libraries themselves.

I guess my point is that the fork() warning was too vague.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ It's impossible for everything to be true. +

On Wed, Oct 03, 2012 at 01:57:47PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 01:53:28PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:

Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:

Yes, but those framework libraries are typically supposed to prevent
such problems from being seen by applications calling them.

How exactly would a library prevent such problems? In particular,
let's see a proposal for how libpq might make it look like a fork
was transparent for an open connection.

I guess that is impossible.

Well, not quite impossible. A simple solution would be to use
pthread_atfork() to register a handler that puts the socket into an
invalid state in either the parent or the child.

http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/pthread_atfork.html

Ofcourse, the backward compatabilty issues prevent us doing that, but
it's *possible*.

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> http://svana.org/kleptog/

He who writes carelessly confesses thereby at the very outset that he does
not attach much importance to his own thoughts.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer

Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> writes:

On Wed, Oct 03, 2012 at 01:57:47PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 01:53:28PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:

How exactly would a library prevent such problems? In particular,
let's see a proposal for how libpq might make it look like a fork
was transparent for an open connection.

I guess that is impossible.

Well, not quite impossible. A simple solution would be to use
pthread_atfork() to register a handler that puts the socket into an
invalid state in either the parent or the child.

That doesn't make it "transparent" --- that merely ensures that we break
one of the two currently-working use cases (namely, that either the
parent or the child can continue to use the connection as long as the
other doesn't touch it).

regards, tom lane