History question

On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:50:19AM +0100, Michael Meskes wrote:

While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres
(the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we
or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts
thereof.

The original Postgres FAQ say

Q. What is the connection between POSTGRES and University Ingres?

A. There is none, aside from Prof. Stonebraker. There is no
compatibility between the two software packages, and the research
projects had differing objectives

This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same
Prof.

Ingres - 1982 -- 1985
- Michael Stonebraker and Eugene Wong at UC-Berkeley
- Ingres = Interactive Graphics and Retrieval System
- original developed on PDP-11/45
- original query language was QUEL

Postgres - 1985(?) - 1994
- based on Ingres
- start with idea make Ingres more OO
- the father was again Stonebraker

Postgres95 - 1994-1995
- UC-Berkeley's students Jolly Chen and Andrew Yu

Mariposa - based on Postgres95
- keynote was specific non realtime replication
- alive this project still?

PostgreSQL - summer 1996
- OpenSource

Companies:

* Ingres Corporation (set up Stonebraker?)
* Robert Epstein from UC-Berkeley team set up Sybase
* Paula Hawthorn from UC-Berkeley team set up
Illustra Information Technologies Incorporated, now know as
Informix

If I know (from some resources on web) M. Stonebraker work with/on
Ingres, Illustra and Informix.

By the way on the world exist two original branchs of SQL DB where is
possible found inspiration of all DB:

* System-R now know as DB2
* Ingres (PostgreSQL, Informix)

http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/far/ch6.html
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95.html
http://db.cs.berkeley.edu/

Do know some other good URL about DB history?

Karel

--
Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
http://home.zf.jcu.cz/~zakkr/

C, PostgreSQL, PHP, WWW, http://docs.linux.cz, http://mape.jcu.cz

While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres
(the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we
or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts
thereof.

It doesn't, and never did. Not sure how that impression got started,
other than some confusion over "based on" vs "successor".

Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase
it...

This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same
Prof.

Right.

- Thomas

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres
(the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we
or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts
thereof.

It doesn't, and never did. Not sure how that impression got started,
other than some confusion over "based on" vs "successor".

Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase
it...

The history paper (the formatting was messed up with the copy/paste):

The History of PostgreSQL Development

by Bruce Momjian

PostgreSQL is the most advanced open-source database
server. It is Object-Relational(ORDBMS), and
is supported by a team of Internet developers. PostgreSQL
began as Ingres, developed at the University of
California at Berkeley(1977-1985). The Ingres code was
taken and enhanced by Relational
Technologies/Ingres Corporation, which produced one of the
first commercially successful relational
database servers. (Ingres Corp. was later purchased by
Computer Associates.) Also at Berkeley, Michael
Stonebraker led a team to develop an object-relational
database server called Postgres(1986-1994). The
Postgres code was taken by Illustra and developed into a
commercial product. (Illustra was later purchased
by Informix and integrated into Informix's Universal
Server.) Two Berkeley graduate students, Jolly Chen
and Andrew Yu, added SQL capabilities to Postgres, and
called it Postgres95(1994-1995). They left
Berkeley, but Jolly continued maintaining Postgres95,
which had an active mailing list.

Vince.
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On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:51:55PM +0000, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase
it...

Vince already posted this.

This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same
Prof.

Right.

Yes, and that's how I remember it.

Michael
--
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the

same

Prof.

Right.

Yes, and that's how I remember it.

IIRC Postgres started out with the same [but extended] query language as
Ingres.
So I think they are not completely unrelated.

Andreas

"Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD" <ZeugswetterA@spardat.at> writes:

IIRC Postgres started out with the same [but extended] query language as
Ingres.
So I think they are not completely unrelated.

QUEL and POSTQUEL are the two query languages in question, I believe.
Never having studied either, I have no clue how closely they are
related.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that Postgres was a completely new
implementation that used none of the Ingres code. The no-overwrite
storage management scheme was definitely a new concept in Postgres.

regards, tom lane

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres
(the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we
or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts
thereof.

It doesn't, and never did. Not sure how that impression got started,
other than some confusion over "based on" vs "successor".

Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase
it...

The history paper (the formatting was messed up with the copy/paste):

Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres. However, Stonebraker was the
same, and the team was probably similar. The text in the first
chapter of my book is a little clearer, calling Ingres an ancestor of
Postgres. There is a link between them, it is just hard to clearly
specify it without going into all sorts of contortions in the text. I
wonder if we should remove the old history article and put the first
chapter of my book in there instead. It is the same content, but
updated.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

...

Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres.

Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How
about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways
a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development
(witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of
the Ingres code base).

Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted
content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content...

- Thomas

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

...

Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres.

Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How
about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways
a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development
(witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of
the Ingres code base).

Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted
content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content...

Either way it's Bruce's text (both book and stuff on the website) so
I'll let you guys figure that out. BTW, there's a reference that
Daemon News also has a copy of that in their archives. Anyway I'm
in class the rest of the day so whatever gets decided I'll get it
tomorrow.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

"Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD" <ZeugswetterA@spardat.at> writes:

IIRC Postgres started out with the same [but extended] query language as
Ingres.
So I think they are not completely unrelated.

QUEL and POSTQUEL are the two query languages in question, I believe.
Never having studied either, I have no clue how closely they are
related.

The languages were almost identical, except for the object creation
extensions.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that Postgres was a completely new
implementation that used none of the Ingres code. The no-overwrite
storage management scheme was definitely a new concept in Postgres.

None shared. I have the Ingres code here and it is pretty small.
Entire source is only 1.7 megs uncompressed.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

...

Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres.

Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How
about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways
a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development
(witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of
the Ingres code base).

Here is the book text. Is that clearer. In fact, this paragraph was
worked on just to clarify the relationship. Yes, I agree it is a
stretch, but to ignore University Ingres seemed wrong too:

POSTGRESQL'S ancestor was Ingres, developed at the University of
California at Berkeley (1977-1985). The Ingres code was later enhanced
by Relational Technologies/Ingres Corporation, 6.1 which produced one of
the first commercially successful relational database servers. Also at
Berkeley, Michael Stonebraker led a team to develop an
object-relational database server called Postgres (1986-1994). Illustra
6.2 took the Postgres code and developed it into a commercial product.

Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted
content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content...

Uh, of course the book is on the web site, but I am unsure about have it
changed because it wouldn't match the book. We can change what is there
now because that doesn't match the book anyway.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

...

Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres.

Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How
about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways
a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development
(witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of
the Ingres code base).

Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted
content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content...

Either way it's Bruce's text (both book and stuff on the website) so
I'll let you guys figure that out. BTW, there's a reference that
Daemon News also has a copy of that in their archives. Anyway I'm
in class the rest of the day so whatever gets decided I'll get it
tomorrow.

OK, I have updated the PostgreSQL history article to match my book,
which mentions Ingres as the "ancestor" of PostgreSQL, developed at
Berkeley too.

Thanks.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026