PostgreSQL still for Linux only?

Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being
displayed by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask,
are we encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

I believe that there is a lot of encouragement of the use of PostgreSQL
on Windows. However I also believe that the
encouragement is two sided. It is great to get windows people to run
PostgreSQL. It is better to get them to run PostgreSQL
on Windows and then realize that Linux is that much better as a platform
for PostgreSQL. It should also be noted
that FreeBSD would also be a good choice.

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all
for Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being
done to encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to
them except the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this,
no that.

Actually Command Prompt is about to release Mammoth Replicator 1.4 for
Win32. It would have been out last week but
our release manager (me) has been very ill. Also remember that Open
Source people in general don't like Windows. Which
is why you won't see a lot of projects for Windows.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support
provider responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Well yes initially it was. However Mammoth PostgreSQL and Mammoth
Replicator for Win32 will come with plPHP preinstalled
for Win32.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows
users. We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need
them.

And? Firebird was originall a dos and the windows product. It didn't
move to Linux/Unix until later in life.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the
devil is not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and
must not be shown to be deficient.

Patience is a virtue. The Windows version of PostgreSQL is still very
young. You have to give it time to get its feet underneat it.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a
massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows
game too far.

It isn't a Linux-Windows game. It is the better platform game. It
doesn't matter if it is Linux, Solaris or FreeBSD. Any one of these
three is exponentially better than windows as a PostgreSQL database server.

This may not be the case in 3 years but for now it is.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Thanks.

-------
Best regards,

Tope Akinniyi
*CEO
/ShepherdHill Software/*
Lagos, Nigeria

*Do not forget:* /_Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life._/

Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
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PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 03:24 +0000, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being
displayed by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask,
are we encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all
for Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being
done to encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to
them except the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this,
no that.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support
provider responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows
users. We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need
them.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the
devil is not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and
must not be shown to be deficient.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a
massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows
game too far.

Thanks.

It's about supply and demand. If enough people demand these tools to
work in windows, they will make it so. Often times, these projects are
started for various reasons and *nix has been the standard platform for
years. Windows is new to the game..and it'll take a while for these
tools to be *migrated* to the windows world.

It's not an evil conspiracy against windows..just like Linux users can
point out that there not enough games for windows yet. The demand isn't
high enough yet and as it increases..this will hopefully change a bit.

-Robby

--
/***************************************
* Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek
* PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com
* Portland, OR | robby@planetargon.com
* 503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com
* PHP-PostgreSQL Hosting & Development
* open source solutions - web hosting
****************************************/

On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 03:24:05AM +0000, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being
displayed by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I
ask, are we encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

I don't see the "extreme Linux mentality" you mention, and in any
case maybe you mean "Unix mentality," where "Unix" refers to a class
of operating systems that includes but isn't limited to Linux.
Subjects like "PostgreSQL still for Linux only?" are (mis)leading
because PostgreSQL runs perfectly well on other Unix-like systems
such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, and many others, to judge
from directories like src/template in the source code. Linux is
popular, but it's NOT the only Unix-like operating system around.
Unfortunately the public is coming to equate the two, with the word
"Unix" often prompting the question, "You mean Linux?"

I will concede that a lot of tools in general tend to be written
for Linux, sometimes without regard to whether they'll work even
on other Unix-like operating systems. But the PostgreSQL project
itself appears to care about portability, so the question "Still
for Linux only?" should really be directed at the third-party
software that some people find useful.

--
Michael Fuhr
http://www.fuhr.org/~mfuhr/

Tope Akinniyi <topeakinniyi@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too far.

This is a troll, isn't it?

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:

Tope Akinniyi <topeakinniyi@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too far.

This is a troll, isn't it?

I don't know, the email was fairly thought out. I think it may have sounded
a little off because it is from a non-native english speaker. Of course
I could have just taken the bait :)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

regards, tom lane

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

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On Tuesday 08 March 2005 07:24 pm, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed
by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all for
Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being done to
encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to them except
the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this, no that.

To be honest - I wouldn't encourage the use of PostgreSQL on Win.
Neither would I for any database or data warehouse application (which probably
is why SAP put onto their website that they prefer linux to windows
platforms).
I think it could even damage the quite good reputation of PostgreSQL - if your
windows box crashes and takes the DB with it - most likely it's not the fault
of a lousy OS, nor the fault of an incompetent sysadmin who forgot to make
backups - it will be this "shitty" free database system that's to blame.

I wrote quite some software that uses postgresql - never would I tell any
customer that he could now run it on windows. As a matter of fact I put code
like:

if os="win" {
errormessage("this software is not ported to windows yet");
exit(99);
}

into the startup routine - just to make it impossible for the customer to run
it on windows.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support provider
responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows users.
We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need them.

Firebird was a DOS ISAM DB. It just made it's way to *nix a couple years ago.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the devil is
not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and must not be
shown to be deficient.

The problem is, that it's a question of perception. Most windows fans don't
see that "their" OS is pretty instable. So it's not a question if the
community can do anything to make PostgreSQL look deficient - it's a question
of what people do with it on Win. I had a similar case recently with a
customer: His MS Office suite crashed at least 3 times a day. So I switched
him to OpenOffice. Now OO crashed once after a month of perfect operation -
guess what, the customer is back to MS Office because OO crashed on him and
MS has this new version that's sooo much better. Call it dumb - but that's
how a lot of people are. Well, he paid a couple $k to get new licenses and is
back where he was a month ago.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive
re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too
far.

It's just a fact: any unix is a better platform for databases than windows.
Windows was designed (and mostly still is) as a Desktop operating system -
and it's fairly good on the desktop. Never trust a server that needs a mouse
attached to operate properly. Unix was designed with scalability, stability
and multiuser-operation in mind - and that's what it's good at. I wouldn't
want my payroll on a windows box - much less my company data.

UC

- --
Open Source Solutions 4U, LLC 2570 Fleetwood Drive
Phone: +1 650 872 2425 San Bruno, CA 94066
Cell: +1 650 302 2405 United States
Fax: +1 650 872 2417
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I don't want to split hairs, but wasn't Firebird originally Interbase? If
so, you'll find it was originally a *nix product before it was a Windows
database (back in the Ashton-Tate days for those with long memories).

Edwin New.

-----Original Message-----
From: Uwe C. Schroeder [mailto:uwe@oss4u.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2005 3:49 PM
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL still for Linux only?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 07:24 pm, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed
by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all for
Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being done to
encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to them except
the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this, no that.

To be honest - I wouldn't encourage the use of PostgreSQL on Win.
Neither would I for any database or data warehouse application (which
probably
is why SAP put onto their website that they prefer linux to windows
platforms).
I think it could even damage the quite good reputation of PostgreSQL - if
your
windows box crashes and takes the DB with it - most likely it's not the
fault
of a lousy OS, nor the fault of an incompetent sysadmin who forgot to make
backups - it will be this "shitty" free database system that's to blame.

I wrote quite some software that uses postgresql - never would I tell any
customer that he could now run it on windows. As a matter of fact I put code

like:

if os="win" {
errormessage("this software is not ported to windows yet");
exit(99);
}

into the startup routine - just to make it impossible for the customer to
run
it on windows.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support provider
responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows

users.

We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need them.

Firebird was a DOS ISAM DB. It just made it's way to *nix a couple years
ago.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the devil

is

not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and must not be
shown to be deficient.

The problem is, that it's a question of perception. Most windows fans don't
see that "their" OS is pretty instable. So it's not a question if the
community can do anything to make PostgreSQL look deficient - it's a
question
of what people do with it on Win. I had a similar case recently with a
customer: His MS Office suite crashed at least 3 times a day. So I switched
him to OpenOffice. Now OO crashed once after a month of perfect operation -
guess what, the customer is back to MS Office because OO crashed on him and
MS has this new version that's sooo much better. Call it dumb - but that's
how a lot of people are. Well, he paid a couple $k to get new licenses and
is
back where he was a month ago.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive
re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too
far.

It's just a fact: any unix is a better platform for databases than windows.
Windows was designed (and mostly still is) as a Desktop operating system -
and it's fairly good on the desktop. Never trust a server that needs a mouse

attached to operate properly. Unix was designed with scalability, stability
and multiuser-operation in mind - and that's what it's good at. I wouldn't
want my payroll on a windows box - much less my company data.

UC

- --
Open Source Solutions 4U, LLC 2570 Fleetwood Drive
Phone: +1 650 872 2425 San Bruno, CA 94066
Cell: +1 650 302 2405 United States
Fax: +1 650 872 2417
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Tom Lane wrote:

Tope Akinniyi <topeakinniyi@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a
massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the
Linux-Windows game too far.

This is a troll, isn't it?

Perhaps it's a 419 :-). But if so I can't see the catch yet - must be
very subtle.

regards, tom lane

--
-----------------------------------------------
Tim Allen tim@proximity.com.au
Proximity Pty Ltd http://www.proximity.com.au/
http://www4.tpg.com.au/users/rita_tim/

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 07:24 pm, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed
by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all for
Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being done to
encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to them except
the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this, no that.

To be honest - I wouldn't encourage the use of PostgreSQL on Win.
Neither would I for any database or data warehouse application (which probably
is why SAP put onto their website that they prefer linux to windows
platforms).
I think it could even damage the quite good reputation of PostgreSQL - if your
windows box crashes and takes the DB with it - most likely it's not the fault
of a lousy OS, nor the fault of an incompetent sysadmin who forgot to make
backups - it will be this "shitty" free database system that's to blame.

i think, the win version of postgresql has been a very important step,
i know developers who have taken an interest in postgresql because of
this version, because they first tried it on windows. later on, most
of these developers migrate to linux, but if you are a windows
developer it is important to have the possibility to try it first
without considering using a different platform.

once we built a web application using linux+apache+php+postgresql and
then needed to do a demonstration of the system on the client's
computer, it was really easy to get it to work with
win+iis+php+postgresql.

so, thank you to all the people who has made this possible.

also, i don't like windows, but many developers do, they prefer
windows, or they are forced to use it as a platform for their
applications. so, in many ways continuing with a windows version and
developing tools for windows is very important for the postgresql
community.

Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being
displayed by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask,
are we encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

At the moment? There are some known issues... Bear in mind that the
Windows port is quite new, and much less tested than on other platforms.

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all
for Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being
done to encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to
them except the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this,
no that.

I would assume that most of the Linux-only tools would work equally well
on AIX, Solaris, *BSD, IRIX, etc. Not sure what you mean by Linux....

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows
users. We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need
them.

Until 8.0, PostgreSQL was not available natively on Windows. If you
wanted to run it on Windows prior, you had to install it via Cygwin (a
POSIX emulation layer). So the fact that there are few tools is mostly
due to the newness of the software on that platform. Give it some time,
and the tools will be ported.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the
devil is not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and
must not be shown to be deficient.

Again give it some time.

However, as a second point, I would point out that *I* would never run
production databases on Windows. This is because I don't trust the
platform not to crash and mess up my data, and my data is worth the best
hardware and software. PostgreSQL on Windows is, however, nice for
developers who want to run it on their development efforts. But YMMV.
And again, this is not the reason for the dearth of tools, but something
to think about when deploying a solution.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Metatron Technology Consulting

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Hash: SHA1

Thinking about it you may be right. I guess I'm misstaking it for something
else. Too many "foxes" out here nowadays :-)

To the topic: I don't argue the benefit of a native windows version from a
marketing point of view (although not so from a technical point of view). As
long as MS hasn't filed a chapter 11 the rest of the world will have to deal
with them. Therefor a native windows version is possibly the only way to make
postgresql more popular and sneak it into the one or other fortune 500
company.

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 09:02 pm, Edwin New wrote:

I don't want to split hairs, but wasn't Firebird originally Interbase? If
so, you'll find it was originally a *nix product before it was a Windows
database (back in the Ashton-Tate days for those with long memories).

Edwin New.

-----Original Message-----
From: Uwe C. Schroeder [mailto:uwe@oss4u.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2005 3:49 PM
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL still for Linux only?

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 07:24 pm, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed
by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all
for Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being done
to encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to them
except the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this, no that.

To be honest - I wouldn't encourage the use of PostgreSQL on Win.
Neither would I for any database or data warehouse application (which
probably
is why SAP put onto their website that they prefer linux to windows
platforms).
I think it could even damage the quite good reputation of PostgreSQL - if
your
windows box crashes and takes the DB with it - most likely it's not the
fault
of a lousy OS, nor the fault of an incompetent sysadmin who forgot to make
backups - it will be this "shitty" free database system that's to blame.

I wrote quite some software that uses postgresql - never would I tell any
customer that he could now run it on windows. As a matter of fact I put
code

like:

if os="win" {
errormessage("this software is not ported to windows yet");
exit(99);
}

into the startup routine - just to make it impossible for the customer to
run
it on windows.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support provider
responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows

users.

We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need them.

Firebird was a DOS ISAM DB. It just made it's way to *nix a couple years
ago.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the devil

is

not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and must not be
shown to be deficient.

The problem is, that it's a question of perception. Most windows fans don't
see that "their" OS is pretty instable. So it's not a question if the
community can do anything to make PostgreSQL look deficient - it's a
question
of what people do with it on Win. I had a similar case recently with a
customer: His MS Office suite crashed at least 3 times a day. So I switched
him to OpenOffice. Now OO crashed once after a month of perfect operation -
guess what, the customer is back to MS Office because OO crashed on him and
MS has this new version that's sooo much better. Call it dumb - but that's
how a lot of people are. Well, he paid a couple $k to get new licenses and
is
back where he was a month ago.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive
re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too
far.

It's just a fact: any unix is a better platform for databases than windows.
Windows was designed (and mostly still is) as a Desktop operating system -
and it's fairly good on the desktop. Never trust a server that needs a
mouse

attached to operate properly. Unix was designed with scalability, stability
and multiuser-operation in mind - and that's what it's good at. I wouldn't
want my payroll on a windows box - much less my company data.

UC

- --
UC

- --
Open Source Solutions 4U, LLC 2570 Fleetwood Drive
Phone: +1 650 872 2425 San Bruno, CA 94066
Cell: +1 650 302 2405 United States
Fax: +1 650 872 2417
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Tim Allen <tim@proximity.com.au> writes:

Tom Lane wrote:

This is a troll, isn't it?

Perhaps it's a 419 :-). But if so I can't see the catch yet - must be
very subtle.

Nothing very subtle about it. In the first place, I'm not going to
waste my breath debating anyone who thinks "Linux" == "every Unix-ish
platform". In the second, I'm not going to waste my breath debating
anyone who thinks that Windows is now, or is likely to soon become, a
reasonable platform to run a production database on. We are supporting
Windows as a Postgres platform for the benefit of developers who want to
do testing on their laptops (and for reasons best known to themselves
feel a need to run Windows on their laptops). If anyone comes to me and
says "I lost data because I was running PG on Windows", I'm going to say
"you picked the wrong OS" not "you picked the wrong database".

regards, tom lane

Uwe C. Schroeder wrote:

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Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 07:24 pm, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed
by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all for
Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being done to
encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to them except
the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this, no that.

To be honest - I wouldn't encourage the use of PostgreSQL on Win.
Neither would I for any database or data warehouse application (which probably
is why SAP put onto their website that they prefer linux to windows
platforms).
I think it could even damage the quite good reputation of PostgreSQL - if your
windows box crashes and takes the DB with it - most likely it's not the fault
of a lousy OS, nor the fault of an incompetent sysadmin who forgot to make
backups - it will be this "shitty" free database system that's to blame.

I wrote quite some software that uses postgresql - never would I tell any
customer that he could now run it on windows. As a matter of fact I put code
like:

if os="win" {
errormessage("this software is not ported to windows yet");
exit(99);
}

into the startup routine - just to make it impossible for the customer to run
it on windows.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support provider
responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows users.
We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need them.

Firebird was a DOS ISAM DB. It just made it's way to *nix a couple years ago.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the devil is
not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and must not be
shown to be deficient.

The problem is, that it's a question of perception. Most windows fans don't
see that "their" OS is pretty instable. So it's not a question if the
community can do anything to make PostgreSQL look deficient - it's a question
of what people do with it on Win. I had a similar case recently with a
customer: His MS Office suite crashed at least 3 times a day. So I switched
him to OpenOffice. Now OO crashed once after a month of perfect operation -
guess what, the customer is back to MS Office because OO crashed on him and
MS has this new version that's sooo much better. Call it dumb - but that's
how a lot of people are. Well, he paid a couple $k to get new licenses and is
back where he was a month ago.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive
re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too
far.

It's just a fact: any unix is a better platform for databases than windows.
Windows was designed (and mostly still is) as a Desktop operating system -
and it's fairly good on the desktop.

according to billy boy himself,
windows is designed " to make it easier and more entertaining for people
to play video games on thier home computer"*
so not even dektop, it was never meant for professional use.

Never trust a server that needs a mouse

attached to operate properly. Unix was designed with scalability, stability
and multiuser-operation in mind - and that's what it's good at. I wouldn't
want my payroll on a windows box - much less my company data.

UC

*Bill Gates in press conference introducing windows 1.0 to the world.

personally, even the nt family, with the absolute requirement of using
video gaming technology, is not a professional os.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:02:46 +1100, Edwin New <edwin_new@toll.com.au> wrote:

I don't want to split hairs, but wasn't Firebird originally Interbase? If
so, you'll find it was originally a *nix product before it was a Windows
database (back in the Ashton-Tate days for those with long memories).

"InterBase started on Apollo Domain, a spectacularly wonderful
workstation with terrific networking. The initial release supported
Apollo, Sun, HP/UX, VAX/VMS, Ultrix, and something else that escapes
me. So, if you wonder 'was InterBase originally a Windows/DOS
system?', the answer is 'no'."

From: http://firebird.sourceforge.net/index.php?op=history&amp;id=ann_2

(This page: http://firebird.sourceforge.net/index.php?op=history&amp;id=ann_1
says also: "InterBase started in the shower." Maybe the "something
else that escapes me" was NetBSD? ;-)

Ian Barwick

Le mardi 08 mars 2005 ￜ 22:17 -0800, J. Greenlees a ￜcrit :

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed
by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

I run my development server on Mac OS X.

If a client asks me to provide my product to run with a Windows back end
fine. But I won't be able to provide any support for performance issues
or integration with the OS.

I always thought the Windows version was a commodity for developers
and/or for highly experienced Windows server admins. The kind that never
complains because he knows what he is doing and his Windows servers just
work.

Cheers

Tony

Okay, I'll split them with you. I remember the Groton Database Corp. of
Groton Connecticut, whose marketing people didn't like the sound of
*Groton*, and renamed the company Interbase and the product InterBase (note
caps). Ashton Tate came along years later and bought the company to
increase their own salability to Borland. I bought InterBase from
Interbase Corp. in 1991 for HP-UX.

Rick

Edwin New
<edwin_new@toll.com.au> To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Sent by: cc:
pgsql-general-owner@pos Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL still for Linux only?
tgresql.org

03/09/2005 12:02 AM

I don't want to split hairs, but wasn't Firebird originally Interbase? If
so, you'll find it was originally a *nix product before it was a Windows
database (back in the Ashton-Tate days for those with long memories).

Edwin New.

-----Original Message-----
From: Uwe C. Schroeder [mailto:uwe@oss4u.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2005 3:49 PM
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL still for Linux only?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 07:24 pm, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being displayed

by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask, are we
encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all

for

Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being done to
encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to them except
the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this, no that.

To be honest - I wouldn't encourage the use of PostgreSQL on Win.
Neither would I for any database or data warehouse application (which
probably
is why SAP put onto their website that they prefer linux to windows
platforms).
I think it could even damage the quite good reputation of PostgreSQL - if
your
windows box crashes and takes the DB with it - most likely it's not the
fault
of a lousy OS, nor the fault of an incompetent sysadmin who forgot to make
backups - it will be this "shitty" free database system that's to blame.

I wrote quite some software that uses postgresql - never would I tell any
customer that he could now run it on windows. As a matter of fact I put
code
like:

if os="win" {
errormessage("this software is not ported to windows yet");
exit(99);
}

into the startup routine - just to make it impossible for the customer to
run
it on windows.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support provider
responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows

users.

We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need them.

Firebird was a DOS ISAM DB. It just made it's way to *nix a couple years
ago.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the devil

is

not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and must not be
shown to be deficient.

The problem is, that it's a question of perception. Most windows fans don't

see that "their" OS is pretty instable. So it's not a question if the
community can do anything to make PostgreSQL look deficient - it's a
question
of what people do with it on Win. I had a similar case recently with a
customer: His MS Office suite crashed at least 3 times a day. So I switched

him to OpenOffice. Now OO crashed once after a month of perfect operation -

guess what, the customer is back to MS Office because OO crashed on him and

MS has this new version that's sooo much better. Call it dumb - but that's
how a lot of people are. Well, he paid a couple $k to get new licenses and
is
back where he was a month ago.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive

re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too
far.

It's just a fact: any unix is a better platform for databases than windows.

Windows was designed (and mostly still is) as a Desktop operating system -
and it's fairly good on the desktop. Never trust a server that needs a
mouse
attached to operate properly. Unix was designed with scalability, stability

and multiuser-operation in mind - and that's what it's good at. I wouldn't
want my payroll on a windows box - much less my company data.

UC

- --
Open Source Solutions 4U, LLC 2570 Fleetwood Drive
Phone: +1 650 872 2425 San Bruno, CA 94066
Cell: +1 650 302 2405 United States
Fax: +1 650 872 2417
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On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 21:24, Tope Akinniyi wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering at this display of extreme Linux mentality being
displayed by the 'top bras' of the PostgreSQL community. And I ask,
are we encouraging Windows use of PostgreSQL at all?

Take a look at tools being rolled out at PgFoundry on daily basis; all
for Linux except the Windows installer. I ask myself what is being
done to encourage PostgreSQL Windows users. Nothing is available to
them except the Database and PgAdmin. No replication tool, no this,
no that.

I was troubled when CommandPrompt, the leading Windows support
provider responded to a post that their plPHP is for Linux only.

Sorry for this: Firebird provides equal tools for Linux and Windows
users. We are not the one to tell the Windows users whether they need
them.

Whether Windows is bad or good; Linux is the angel and Windows the
devil is not the issue here. PostgreSQL has gone the Windows way and
must not be shown to be deficient.

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a
massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows
game too far.

I think you misunderstand the basic open source model. People get an
itch, they scratch it.

Right now, there are very few postgresql on windows users, because it is
so new. There are lots and lots of postgresql on UNIX (not just linux
btw) folks. So, there are more people scratching itches on unix than on
windows. As the number of Windows users grows, the number of folks who
feel a need to port things originally written for unix will grow.

At my last company, they brought in a (possibly clinically insane) CIO
who decided that all this Unix stuff was outdated, and hey, it worked at
my subdivision of 20 IT and 200 sales staff at my last company, so it
ought to work here with 300 IT and 200 other folks, right? So, my buddy
who is unfortunately still stuck there has had to port all of our
internal apps to run on windows, and the port of postgresql to windows
was a great help for him.

He's one of those people we may find scratching an itch some day. But
it's organic, it happens when it happens. Who knows, one day one of the
core postgresql developers might be a windows expert.

I'm quite certain that if you see something that doesn't work on
windows, and you do make it work on windows, your patches for that
something will likely be accepted with grace. But the unix users aren't
going to install windows just to do it for you and the other windows
users. They have other things to do. Give it time...

Tom Lane wrote:

Tope Akinniyi <topeakinniyi@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

I am not holding anybody responsible, but I think we need to do a massive re-orientation of the community not to carry the Linux-Windows game too far.

This is a troll, isn't it?

My thinking as well, unfortunately, has hooked some folks...

--
Until later, Geoffrey

--- "Uwe C. Schroeder" <uwe@oss4u.com> wrote:

The problem is, that it's a question of

perception. Most windows fans don't

see that "their" OS is pretty instable.

That may have been true in 1995. However, in this day
and age most Windows fans don't see that their OS as
unstable because it isn't - unless of course you are
referring to the non-NT variations.

Regards,

Shelby Cain

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