Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...

If you call borland and tell them you want to do a competive upgrade for the old VB you are using
they will let you buy the upgrade to Delphi 2005 PRO. You have to ask.

Like I said before you get what you pay for and all this time you have been fooling around you could have just bought Delphi.
All the time you spent researching is actually costing someone money.

Not sure what you mean by this

And several years ago, I had some experiences
with people using Delphi, and their database server that make me not so
enthusiastic to get involved... but I did want to give credit to Tony
that his arguments for using Delphi are convincing, if it were readily
available. And I do thank him for all his time and efforts to advise me.

Delphi has been superior to VB,Access etc since 1995 when version 1 came out. Version 1 had features that MS has only
recently included in .net

I am just giving you good advice, I have been a developer for a long time and have used VB, C++, Assembly, Access etc and
when I say Delphi is the best tool for creating win32 database apps, I mean it.
If Access or C# was better I would for sure be using it.

Also I have had good luck with Microolap, I use their postgresdac components, and guess what? That MySQL RAD thing they sell
is created with.....yep you guessed it Delphi.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

On Thu, 5 May 2005, Tony Caduto wrote:

Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...

I haven't used any Microsoft or Winduhs software for about eight years now,
but I beleive that you can get -- for free -- Qt for winduhs. If you do this,
you get the Qt Designer included. This is a GUI GUI developer; a RAD if you
wish. It works with C++ and with python (my lanuage of choice now). All these
tools are free.

Rich

--
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
<http://www.appl-ecosys.com&gt; Voice: 503-667-4517 Fax: 503-667-8863

On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 04:28:43PM -0700, Rich Shepard wrote:

On Thu, 5 May 2005, Tony Caduto wrote:

Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...

I haven't used any Microsoft or Winduhs software for about eight years
now,
but I beleive that you can get -- for free -- Qt for winduhs. If you do
this,
you get the Qt Designer included. This is a GUI GUI developer; a RAD if you
wish. It works with C++ and with python (my lanuage of choice now). All
these
tools are free.

/me uses Qt a lot

Qt is not exactly free for Windows right now. The current release
of Qt is 3.3.4. There is a learning Qt book available that includes
Qt/Windows 3.2.3 on CD under a fairly liberal license.

Qt 4 is in late beta, and will be available under something like
the GPL for Windows.

Qt has a very nice database abstraction that lets you access most
database features without needing to know the underlying database.
The disadvantage is that it's an abstraction. You can't access some
features using it, and if you're familiar with libpq, say, it feels a
little like working on something while wearing thick gloves.

Cheers,
Steve

Hello.
It seems that many people fanatically recommend Delphi, while others
fanaticaly despise Delphi. I've sent a question about comparative features
of MS Access/Visual Studio/Delphi for working with databases to a newsgroup
and people started to quarell instead of argumenting anything !
Interesting....
I started to be involved in programming and databases two years ago when I
got an idea for very specific project. First I had to learn about databses
in general, from zero. As MS Office is widespread and present in my job, MS
Access was logical decision. I started learning Access and VBA fanatically.
Now, I feel that I'm ready for something more powerfull but don't know what
to choose...I already started learning VB.NET...There are also some
freeware IDE for .NET, like SharpDevelop, for example.
But I would like to find some good and easy to use IDE that will be both
powerfull enough for making proffessional aplications and easy to use as
Access/VBA was...Also, it would be great if such IDE is both for Windows and
Linux.
Is Delphi solution for me ?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Caduto" <tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com>
To: <typing80wpm@aol.com>
Cc: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

Thanks, everyone, for suggestions regarding QT. I did find a good book on
QT in the computer section of a bookstore and spent quite some time looking
at it, the "hello world" exercise, and almost purchased it. But I know from
past experience that I am not going to make a lot of progress teaching myself
any form of C language. I am able to make some progress in Basic dialects.
I was doing very well with Liberty Basic, but it just doesnt offer any easy
or practical way to use SQL, other than some cumbersome schemes to call the
dll for SQLite, and the dll for MSAccess mdb jet engine.

I should have made it clear that I am just a hobbyist teaching myself in my
spare time, for fun. Tony Caduto is worried that some employer is losing
money because I wont purchase Delphi. But thanks Tony, for your good advice. And
it IS good advice for someone with money and staff behind them to take that
advice and make something productive happen.

I just thought it would be worthwhile to share with Postgresql users how
much more difficult and less intuitive I found the MySQL download/install for
Windows to be compared to Postgresql Windows download/install.

I get the feeling that my best bet to make some progress teaching myself
something new is to stick with MS Access, and to connect to Postgresql through
ODBC. There are so many books available on Access and VBA, and I purchased
two of them.

I have a very old book on SQL called Lantimes SQL, and I think I will write
some sql scripts to run in PostgresSQL to define and load the test tables in
the back of that book. I have two books by Joe Celko on SQL as well, so if I
just concentrate on such books, I can gain some fluency in SQL.

It is just too bad that there is not a better, more user friendly, well
documented front-end tool for Postgresql in open source. It really is kind of a
marketing issue, in a way. I mean, if someone could really put together some
sort of "Postgresql for Dummies" series with something like Rekall for a
front end with some REAL LIFE examples or projects that ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING
USEFUL, rather than just paint a form to go first/last/next/add/save.... if
someone could put together something like THAT, then, perhaps things would
really take off. I dont know. Just a thought. All the ingredients and raw
materials are lying around just waiting for someone to do that.

I guess MSAccess is fine, except expensive. Also, given the fact that M$ has
pulled the rug out from under Visual Basic, one can never be too certain
what the future will be for something like MSAccess. Even the world of Visual
Foxpro has in some ways slowly eroded because of perennial rumors that
Microsoft will withdraw support for it.

Perhaps the stunning success of the Open Source community is fueled by the
ruthless and fickle nature of companies such as Microsoft. One would like to
build upon some foundation that is not going to disappear in a few years.
Realbasic looks like an attractive alternative to Visual Basic, but then that
is one lone company which is riding the Tusnami of the Windows operating
system (although I guess they are cross platform), but the point is, whatever one
chooses to learn, if it is tied to Windows, then its future is tied to the
whims of Microsoft.

I am convinced that Tony Caduto is correct in everything he says about
Delphi.

If you are with some Company, and you have your full time to devote to
programming, and the support of a staff and a budget, why I am sure you can make
anything work for you. If you throw enough time and money and manpower at any
problem, you can solve it.

I knew a developer who developed the firewall product LOCKDOWN. He told me
he did it in Delphi, and he explained all the advantages of Delphi.

The real issue in my mind with any given language, or operating system or
tool is "where will it be 10 years from now, or 20." I used to program in
the PICK system. That was an amazing language and OS to work in, but it was
developed for dumb-ascii-terminals and really never seemed to make a transition
to the Windows GUI world. Revelation was an implimentation of PICK under
DOS, which also never seemed to make a smooth transition to Windows/GUI,
although they attemted to do so with a product called OpenInsight. Look at the
popularity of Ashton Tate DbaseIII, and then Foxpro which was bought out by
Microsoft, in some ways, I suspect, to be shelved as competition. Look at the
tremendous popularity in the 1980s for Focus database manager. Many companies
sprang up with products and services developed in Focus.

Look at the vicissitudes of Borland's Interbase product, and those users who
were devoted to it. Look at the history of Novell, and the history of the
Btrieve product, bought out by Novell, then neglected, then bought back by the
original developers, then transmogrified to the point that original Btrieve
enthusiasts were disillusioned and sought a rebirth/reformation with the
Tsunami product.

Look at the rise and fall of Borland and Turbo Pascal.

My point is simple, whatever one chooses to "go with", in order to lay a
foundation for some software/programming effort-project, .... well, a building
is only as secure as the foundation upon which it rests.

I guess that is why open source is so popular. Even if the things in open
source world are not as bright and shiney and glittering as some proprietary
products, well. at least there is some hope that it will be there in years to
come, ... some hope that you can take control of it,.... control of its
direction and evolution.

What is difficult to control is public opinion, and tastes, and popularity
contests, and the technology of hardware and communications upon which such
operating systems and languages function....

Just thinking out loud... thanks for listening...

I suppose, with regard to the question of Delphi, one might simply line up
and summarize or itemize all of the items and points PRO and CON.

One finds such PRO and CON lists for Postgresql vs MySQL vs Oracle, for
Linux vs Windows,... for so many things.

But, its all analogous to an ocean voyage. We all agree that voyages are
exciting adventures. There are so many places which are exotic and romantic,
where we would like to be (and anyplace always looks better to us then wherever
we are at the moment). And every voyage involves crossing the same ocean.
The nature of the ocean and its risks is a constant, a universal, a given.
SO, in order to make our fantastic voyage, we pick out a popular, dependable
ship to transport us to that exotic destination.

We look at the wonderful, solid ocean liner which we have chosen, the choice
of many (we are in good company), and we see on the side of our vessel that
it is called "The Titanic." Well, history has 20/20 hindsight, and we all
know only too well what happens to "The Titanic": it sinks.

So, we have an idea for a project, and application, some software. So, we
choose a company, an operating system, a language, some hardware and
technology. But, then, even if it is the most wonderful hardware and software in the
world, where will it be in ten years, in 20 years?

For so many years, AT&T, was tops, and part of the Standard and Poors Index
(or some stock index, I forget). But now, AT&T has fallen into second place,
and Verizon has taken its place. IBM and Xerox were at the top, but in some
ways fell behind. Bill Gates walked into Palo Alto for a tour, and stole
aways the concept of Windows, and Networks and the Mouse, and all because the
Xerox Company was a bunch of "copier-heads", and they could not see the value
or potential of what they had. I am citing these things from memory, from a
documentary I saw, and perhaps I have confused a few things.

I am always forgetting the name of the inventor of Visicalc, the very first
spreadsheet program. I had to google just now to remember. Dan Bricklin. Lotus
Corp. finally bought him out for the sole purpose of shelving the
competition. And then Lotus fell into the background in the face of M$ Excel. Look at
Steve Jobs, for that matter, building Apple up from a garage operation, then
getting pushed out, and finally coming back to the help. And when Jobs and
Wozniak first approached Hewlett Packard with the idea of a computer kit for
home computers, Hewlett-Packard thought it would be a fad, and not worth the
effort. My grandfather graduated as a chemist from Yale in 1899. At one
point, early in his career, he had a choice between three different jobs. One
was with Remington repeating firearms, another was with the Pennsylvania
Railroad, and the third was with some new-fangled thing called Polaroid. His old
chemistry professor advised him to stay away from that Polaroid, since it was
only a passing fad. Had he gone in with Polariod on the ground floor, then
with stock options, he might have been fabulously wealthy.

Look at all these vicissitudes, ups and downs.

So, where will Delphi be in ten years? What will support be like? Who knows?
But, if one is faced with some project that needs doing, then one must make
some choice, some decision, and then go with it, live with it. I suppose
one comforting dependable thought is that SQL, Structured Query Language, is
really here to stay. Gone are the days of proprietary database schemes and
file structures. You may not know who your vendor or provider will be for your
SQL engine in ten years. Perhaps Oracle. Perhaps the open source community.
But you can feel fairly certain that SQL as a technology is here to stay.
Thank God something is dependable. Titanics come and go, but the ocean is
always the ocean.

Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when zlatko.matic1@sb.t-com.hr ("Zlatko Matic") wrote:

It seems that many people fanatically recommend Delphi, while others
fanaticaly despise Delphi. I've sent a question about comparative
features of MS Access/Visual Studio/Delphi for working with
databases to a newsgroup and people started to quarell instead of
argumenting anything ! Interesting....

The problem with Delphi is that it is uncertain where it will stand
five and ten years down the road.

Keep in mind that the bulk of the costs associated with deploying
custom applications have to do with ongoing maintenance. You need the
ability to continue to deploy changes as "business requirements" (or
whatever is most akin, for non-business organizations) change.

Five years ago, I was hearing conversations where people were actively
migrating away from Delphi because of deep concerns as to whether
Borland would exist a year down the road.

To an extent, that has been proven wrong, as both Borland and Delphi
are still around.

However, the "severe dangers" to Borland certainly still exist.
Microsoft wants to cut them out as a Windows vendor; Microsoft would
rather you pay your "development tools" money to Microsoft for .NET
and the likes. Microsoft is severely dangerous to them, in that
Microsoft controls what is in forthcoming versions of Windows, which
is doubtless why they have put some effort into Kylix, which is
essentially Delphi for Linux.

Killer question: Can you assume that apps you wrote two years ago
(with Delphi) will still be able to run on top of Longhorn? If not,
that makes Delphi a dangerous choice.

There are those that would criticize it for it using Pascal; it's not
really worth going there...
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc"))
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/internet.html
"Oh, I've seen copies [of Linux Journal] around the terminal room at
The Labs." -- Dennis Ritchie

That's what was said 7 years ago..... guess what it's still around and
going strong.
This is one of the most ridiculous arguments against using Delphi, every
year people
like you say this, then 7 years go by and your still wrong....

The problem with Delphi is that it is uncertain where it will stand
five and ten years down the road.

Killer question: Can you assume that apps you wrote two years ago
(with Delphi) will still be able to run on top of Longhorn? If not,
that makes Delphi a dangerous choice.

Apps created 9 years ago with Delphi 2 will run in Longhorn, hardly a
dangerous choice, you also
forgot to mention or don't know that Delphi 2005 ships with Delphi .net
which means you can
compile code native win32(single exes) or target .net. it also ships
with full C# support.
Bill Gates recently mentioned that 32bit support will be around for the
next 50 years and MS products will have to support
them. Heck most of my Delphi apps work well under WINE on Linux...

There are those that would criticize it for it using Pascal; it's not
really worth going there...

Thats easy to say for someone who has never used it, maybe you should
talk to the hundreds of VB 6 MVPs who are now
trying to sue M$ because they won't be supporting VB 6 anymore and
VB.net is sooo different for them.
Pascal is a easy to use strongly typed language that can do just about
anything C or C++ can do (except for drivers)
There are tons and tons of apps created in Delphi that can just blow you
away, i.e. full RDBMS systems (nexusDB) many remote control
products(like PC anywhere), multitudes of IM servers and clients, C++
IDEs (http://wxdsgn.sourceforge.net/) etc etc.

And once again the whole point is that Delphi can create very functional
GUI Database apps without writting a lot of code, and if you do want to
write code you can, it gives you
the best of both worlds. You can create FINISHED GUI DB apps in 20
minutes in Delphi while the C# or Java guy is still writing code and you
get all the Object Oriented goodness you could ever want, and it's been
there since 1995, when VB could only dream about it.

This is not about being religious about any particular language, it's
about using one that can bring a DB product/program together very fast
with low to none dependencies
and deployment issues. If C#, Python, Java would allow me to create GUI
DB apps at the same speed and ease I would be all over it.
I use C# and Java for writing console applications where a advanced GUI
is not needed and I have found that C# makes nice console apps that also
work well on Linux via mono, and have several in production that import
500,000+ records per day into a Postgresql database.

It looks a lot nicer when you know the FACTS.

Thanks,

Tony

<Typing80wpm@aol.com> wrote in message news:b8.72030621.2fac7092@aol.com...

It is just too bad that there is not a better, more user friendly, well
documented front-end tool for Postgresql in open source. It really is
kind of a
marketing issue, in a way. I mean, if someone could really put together
some
sort of "Postgresql for Dummies" series with something like Rekall for a
front end with some REAL LIFE examples or projects that ACTUALLY DO
SOMETHING
USEFUL, rather than just paint a form to go first/last/next/add/save....
if
someone could put together something like THAT, then, perhaps things
would
really take off. I dont know. Just a thought. All the ingredients and
raw
materials are lying around just waiting for someone to do that.

Hear, hear. Speaking as another self-taught database user and programmer, I
have a gripe about most (nearly all) books on programming, which don't (or
else poorly) address questions like:
* What useful stuff can you do with this?
* Why was this technology (language etc.) invented, i.e. what problem was it
designed to solve, and why is it better than competing technologies?
* What is the point of exotic feature xyz (i.e. what is it really there
for)?
* How do you put together a working application that does something useful?

If anyone here can suggest books that really address those questions, I for
one will be all ears.

They are if you are doing any of your research at work :-)
I started using Delphi for shareware/hobby products and while the
initial investment was higher, I reap the benefits of a huge third party
and open source component environment.
Lets see, say you need a syntax highlighting editor component for free,
delphi has you covered with Synedit http://synedit.sourceforge.net/, say
you want a very nice bocking TCP/IP client/server framework, again your
covered (Synapse http://www.ararat.cz/synapse/), say you want a nice XP
like tool bar component, Toolbar 2000 is there (www.jrsoftware.org)
along with Inno Setup (created with Delphi) and of course we can't
forget about Zeos http://www.zeoslib.net

I could go on and on....

You certainly don't need any staff behind you to use Delphi. I don't
have a staff....or a ton of spare cash....
I bought Delphi 2005 back in December and I just finished paying it off
a little each month, was it worth it? You better believe it...

Sounds like you invested in a Dell laptop or PC from prior posts, the
same can be said for a nice profesional RAD IDE.
You need to make an investment, you get what you pay for.

Find a copy of Delphi 5 pro on ebay or whatever for cheap, then use it
to get the upgrade.

We could go on and on about this, so this will be my last post on this
subject. If you do decide to go with Delphi let me know and I could
provide some examples.

tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com (Tony Caduto) writes:

That's what was said 7 years ago..... guess what it's still around
and going strong. This is one of the most ridiculous arguments
against using Delphi, every year people like you say this, then 7
years go by and your still wrong....

I wasn't the one doing the evaluation back then. I wasn't working
with Delphi then, didn't discard it then, and haven't discarded it
recently.

The problem with Delphi is that it is uncertain where it will stand
five and ten years down the road.

Killer question: Can you assume that apps you wrote two years ago
(with Delphi) will still be able to run on top of Longhorn? If not,
that makes Delphi a dangerous choice.

Apps created 9 years ago with Delphi 2 will run in Longhorn, hardly
a dangerous choice, you also forgot to mention or don't know that
Delphi 2005 ships with Delphi .net which means you can compile code
native win32(single exes) or target .net. it also ships with full
C# support. Bill Gates recently mentioned that 32bit support will
be around for the next 50 years and MS products will have to support
them. Heck most of my Delphi apps work well under WINE on Linux...

Bill Gates also mentioned that "640K would be enough for anyone" and
wrote, in an evidently-not-well-enough-edited book, that "The obvious
mathematical breakthrough would be the development of an easy way to
factor large prime numbers." There seems to be good reason to
"reserve trust" there.

There are those that would criticize it for it using Pascal; it's not
really worth going there...

Thats easy to say for someone who has never used it

I was merely making an observation.

There are those that will be critical about Delphi being based on the
Pascal language, which is a simple fact.

It's not worth starting any battle on the subject; there are just too
many opinions out there on programming languages.

There's certainly a set of people falling into the "Real Programmers
Don't Use Pascal" <http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html&gt;
camp, where the stated opinion is...

"If you can't do it in Fortran, do it in assembly language. If you
can't do it in assembly language, it isn't worth doing."

When Unix came along, which is not based on FORTRAN, it was still
observed that it might be not too bad for Real Programmers:

"Even Unix might not be as bad on Real Programmers as it once
was. The latest release of Unix has the potential of an operating
system worthy of any Real Programmer-- two different and subtly
incompatible user interfaces, an arcane and complicated teletype
driver, virtual memory. If you ignore the fact that it's
"structured", even 'C' programming can be appreciated by the Real
Programmer: after all, there's no type checking, variable names are
seven (ten? eight?) characters long, and the added bonus of the
Pointer data type is thrown in-- like having the best parts of
Fortran and assembly language in one place. (Not to mention some of
the more creative uses for #define.)"

PostgreSQL obviously fits into the latter category ;-).
--
(format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "acm.org")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/sap.html
Rules of the Evil Overlord #78. "I will not tell my Legions of Terror
"And he must be taken alive!" The command will be: ``And try to take
him alive if it is reasonably practical.''"
<http://www.eviloverlord.com/&gt;

--- typing80wpm@aol.com wrote:

I was pleased with the progress I could make with Visual Basic and
Postgresql, as well as what I could do through MS Access. But it
would be so nice to have something that paints screens quickly and
allows one to develop things fast. Powerbuilder was nice when I
tried it some years ago. I suppose if I do go to all the trouble to

I curious as to the limitations you are running up against where Visual
Basic (I'm assuming pre-.NET) and MS Access not RAD oriented enough for
you?

Have you tried SharpDevelop (free IDE for VB.Net and C#) + the free
.NET SDK from Microsoft?

I realize that Tony Caduto may possibly encourage me to buy Delphi.

I remember the Borland of old that offered extraordinarily powerful
tools at a reasonable price. Unfortunately, they are not the same
company they used to be.

Regards,

Shelby Cain

Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html

I just read on the Lazarus home page that Zeos (http://www.zeoslib.net)
has been ported to Lazurus.

Lazarus is a Delphi IDE like clone that uses the Free Pascal compiler.

check it out at:
http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

Could I invite java (and may be other languages) and the Eclipse Visual Editor as a new wrestler in the tournament?

http://www.eclipse.org/vep/

Jacques Massé
________________________________________
Diadfish: http://www.diadfish.org
PostgreSQL : http://www.postgresqlfr.org

Hi,

I'm testing Delphi 2005 at the moment, with ZEOS Lib (libpq), and I have to say it work fine, as Tony mentioned. I have a few questions:

1) I'm curious: are there a lot of big projects using ZEOS with PG or is that technology still relatively new? I would like to use it a replacement for ODBC, but I have no experience regarding its stability.

2) Is it possible to link Crystal Reports, the integrated reporting tool of Delphi 2005, to PG through ZEOS? I couldn't find how to do it...

3) ZEOS has support for the PG 7.4 protocol. Correct if I'm wrong, but the PG 8.0 protocol is exactly the same, right?

4) Are there know limitations would should be aware of before when building a PG GUI with Delphi 2005 / ZEOS 6.5.1? Like uncompatible tools or things like that...

Thanks for your time!

Philippe

-----Message d'origine-----
De : pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] De la part de Tony Caduto
Envoyé : vendredi, 6. mai 2005 00:48
À : typing80wpm@aol.com
Cc : pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Objet : Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...

If you call borland and tell them you want to do a competive upgrade for the old VB you are using they will let you buy the upgrade to Delphi 2005 PRO. You have to ask.

Like I said before you get what you pay for and all this time you have been fooling around you could have just bought Delphi.
All the time you spent researching is actually costing someone money.

Not sure what you mean by this

And several years ago, I had some experiences with people using
Delphi, and their database server that make me not so enthusiastic to
get involved... but I did want to give credit to Tony that his
arguments for using Delphi are convincing, if it were readily
available. And I do thank him for all his time and efforts to advise me.

Delphi has been superior to VB,Access etc since 1995 when version 1 came out. Version 1 had features that MS has only recently included in .net

I am just giving you good advice, I have been a developer for a long time and have used VB, C++, Assembly, Access etc and when I say Delphi is the best tool for creating win32 database apps, I mean it.
If Access or C# was better I would for sure be using it.

Also I have had good luck with Microolap, I use their postgresdac components, and guess what? That MySQL RAD thing they sell is created with.....yep you guessed it Delphi.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Hi,

The company I work for actually uses the Zeos lib/Postgres extensively
to track the shipping and sales side for almost 3 years.

We're still running on a 7.2/7.4 Postgres database, because I haven't
been convinced yet to either update or upgrade to 8.x.x. I'm curious
if others have successfully moved their (production) database
successfully to Postgres 8.0.

Regards,

Arthur

Hello,

But I know from past experience that I am not going to make a lot of
progress teaching myself any form of C language.

I had to learn programming with Pascal at university first. It worked
for me.

Then I had to learn Fortran. Didn't like some things about it, but
still managed to get it to work.

Then I had to learn C and H-A-T-E-D it. Never used it and forgot
everyhing about it after the class' final test.

And then I heard about the existence of Python. The first language I
learned voluntarily and the only one I'm still using. If Python didn't
exist, I wouldn't have done anything related to programming since
university. Just as I wouldn't use computers out of work if Macs
didn't exist.

I should have made it clear that I am just a hobbyist teaching
myself in my spare time, for fun.

I'm not a developer either. Nor am I using Python intensively in my
job.

Despite this I'm planning to spend a week (during my vacation!) at
Europython this year. And the trip there plus the registration fee
will cost me quite a bit of money - Sweden is expensive and not quite
around the corner.

What is nice about Python especially for non-professional programmers:

- it scales from trivial throw-away command-line scripts (<=> Delphi)
to beyond what you will ever need (the GNUe project is implementing an
ERP system with it)
- it interfaces with basically every kind of library, interface or
whatever; you can use COM on Windows (<=> Java), Applescript on the
Mac and lots of open source applications use it as their scripting
language

Consequently, Python alone is likely to get everything done that you
will ever need in your whole life.

And - Postgres suports it as a "second native" language for triggers,
stored procedures etc.

And - you don't have to deal with memory management (you can "help"
the garbage collector by resolving cyclic references yourself, but you
don't have to)

It is just too bad that there is not a better, more user friendly,
well documented front-end tool for Postgresql in open source.

Err, you mean an IDE which allows to implement GUI applications (using
Postgres or not) easily?

For Python there are quite a few which use either wxPython or PyQt (or
GTK, but those are for Linux and *BSD).

One using wxyPthon is GNUe designer, although it is unfortunately
badly (mostly un-)documented.

Black Adder is an example for one using Qt. It even allows you to
build not-open-source applications with PyQt due to a special
licensing arrangement.

OpenOffice forms allow to do nice things as well, with or without
Python (via PyUNO). In fact imho instead of implementing yet another
open-source database for 2.0, they should just have included a
Postgresql (SDBC?) driver in OO.

I guess MSAccess is fine, except expensive.

And it's REALLY limited in what you can do (not just concerning the
amounts of data it can handle).

Also, given the fact that M$ has pulled the rug out from under
Visual Basic, one can never be too certain what the future will be
for something like MSAccess.

Won't happen with Python. Even if Guido van Rossum would get run over
by a truck tomorrow (which hopefully won't happen), it would keep
getting developed, because it has grown far to usefull for far too
many people. And no MS, Sun, Oracle or whoever can pull the plug on
it. The same applies to wxWidgets.

Even the world of Visual Foxpro has in some ways slowly eroded
because of perennial rumors that Microsoft will withdraw support for
it.

Some ex-Visual Foxpro developers are currently working on a
replacement called Dabo and guess what they are using - Python and
wxWidgets.

Perhaps the stunning success of the Open Source community is fueled
by the ruthless and fickle nature of companies such as Microsoft.
One would like to build upon some foundation that is not going to
disappear in a few years. Realbasic looks like an attractive
alternative to Visual Basic, but then that is one lone company which
is riding the Tusnami of the Windows operating system (although I
guess they are cross platform),

Beep - RealBasic was implemented on the Mac first. :-)

but the point is, whatever one chooses to learn, if it is tied to
Windows, then its future is tied to the whims of Microsoft.

Not necessarily.

With Pyhon and wxWidgets or Qt, you can easily work on Windows, Linux,
*BSD (and MacOS and Windows CE and PalmOS and your series 60 Nokia
mobile phone and and and) today and not worry too much about whether
(and on what system) you'll be able to use it tomorrow.

Best regards

Wolfgang Keller

--
P.S.: My From-address is correct

Wolfgang, thanks! I am very persuaded by your arguments regarding Python.
What you have written makes me look at Python in a different light.

I happened to find a download of Python2.2 which I installed at work but
have not tried out. I wish I could find detailed instructions on WHICH python
to download from WHERE, and what I would need to download to access Postgresql
from Python, and then some simple examples of sending a query to postgres
and processing the results. I would be perfectly happy to work with it in that
funny DOS window, I would not require that it be Windows GUI app. Just to
be able to read and write to Postgresql. Do you think there is such a
tutorial/documentation.

Thanks!