Postgres in government

On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 21:24, Mark Steckel wrote:

Hello,

Sorry for the cross post.

I am working on a requirements and recommendation document for a division
of the State of Hawaii Attorney General's office. We are proposing that
Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are
being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source.

We all know that Postgres is good and given the requirements and scale of
this project (fairly small) it is a very good fit. I have looked at the
case studies listed on postgresql.org and searched the mailing list
archives. I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of
Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities. Overall,
not a lot of examples out there, which seems strange because I know it is
being used by various government agencies.

Its the communities of users and developers that make open source software
so powerful, I decided that the best course of action was to leverage the
community.

So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly
appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project
name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and
can share.

There are probably thousands of 24/7 operations running postgresql.
None of them have to tell anyone, so it's no surprise you haven't heard
about them.

One of the more interesting projects running on postgresql is the .org
domain. Do a search for postgresql and afilias and .org or whatnot.

Scott Marlowe wrote:

On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 21:24, Mark Steckel wrote:

...We are proposing that
Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are
being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source.

So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I
would think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory
products!

...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database.
Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional information because
Postgres is open source.

So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would
think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products!

It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes
bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can.

If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? No one... which means
the guy who approved it is the scape goat -- which is why he wants proof
that others have found it worthy...

Silly, but that's probably what's happening.

-philip

Mark Steckel wrote:

I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of
Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities.

I find googling for vendors who are known to use PostgreSQL and
searching for people's resumes is a good way to find descriptions
of Government projects along with contacts for references.
Here's a couple that look interesting.

US Navy, Northrop Grumman

Use PostgreSQL in the Navy Enterprise Portal and the Fleet
Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography Center(FNMOC) Portal:

http://kennethbowen.com/kbresume.html

" Develop J2EE application to store user profiles for the Navy
Enterprise Portal and the Fleet Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography
Center(FNMOC) Portal using JBoss application server and
PostgreSQL database.
"

DOD, USGS, USDA, Army Corp of Engineers, Navy, through a company called Sanz:

http://postgis.refractions.net/pipermail/postgis-users/2005-March/007399.html

Sanz manages
"tens of terrabyte datasets of raster and vector
data for the DOD, USGS, USDA, Army Corp of
Engineers, Navy, etc."
using postgresql and postgis

On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 11:35, Philip Hallstrom wrote:

...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database.
Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional information because
Postgres is open source.

So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would
think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products!

It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes
bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can.

Ummm. No, they can't. But they can BLAME microsoft to their bosses.
Microsoft's EULA, like most for commercial software, makes it clear that
all you'll ever get out of them is your money back. And even that is a
stretch.

Read up on their "indemnity". It's basically a money back guarantee,
and nothing more.

If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue?

The same people they would sue if MSSQL went south...

No one...

Correct.

which means
the guy who approved it is the scape goat

Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats,
rather than proven results.

-- which is why he wants proof
that others have found it worthy...

When what he should want is proof that it will work for HIS situation,
since other's use may or may not reflect his.

Silly, but that's probably what's happening.

Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor
understanding of the scientific method get involved.

Mr, Steckel,

I am working on a requirements and recommendation document for a division
of the State of Hawaii Attorney General's office. We are proposing that
Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are
being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source.

Amusing, isn't it, that open source software requires additional information?

So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly
appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project
name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and
can share.

Some web resources using PostgreSQL 24/7:
Afilias Inc, running the .ORG and .INFO domains
TravelPost.com
Rambler.ru
.... seven popular web sites I've worked on for all of which I'm under
NDA ....

Government Agencies using PostgreSQL:
City of Garden Grove, CA
National Gallery
Media Library project of the Library of Congress
Several highway departments (using ShareChive)
Three large Federal agencies I'm not allowed to mention :-(

The last touches on a key difficulty in giving references. I personally know
of one Federal agency who is using PostgreSQL in a national security
capacity ... and if I named it, at the very least the staff involved would be
fired. For that matter, there is another national agency-like body using
PostgreSQL extensively whom you can find by googling our mailing lists ...
but they can't be mentioned "officially" either.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I

would greatly

appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just

the project

name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details

you have and

can share.

Wasn't the previous "Featured User" quote on the postgresql.org website from
a representative of the City of Garden Grove in CA? There doesn't seem to
be a way to view the past featured user comments, but I'm pretty sure this
was the case. He/she may be willing to provide more info if you can find
out who it was.

-b

Government Agencies using PostgreSQL:
City of Garden Grove, CA
National Gallery
Media Library project of the Library of Congress
Several highway departments (using ShareChive)
Three large Federal agencies I'm not allowed to mention :-(

Sandia Labs
US Army
Dept of Forestry
State of California
NCSA
NOAA

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

The last touches on a key difficulty in giving references. I personally know
of one Federal agency who is using PostgreSQL in a national security
capacity ... and if I named it, at the very least the staff involved would be
fired. For that matter, there is another national agency-like body using
PostgreSQL extensively whom you can find by googling our mailing lists ...
but they can't be mentioned "officially" either.

--
Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

Josh,

Sandia Labs
US Army
Dept of Forestry
State of California
NCSA
NOAA

Wow, amazingly enough, the above doesn't include any of the three. Is there
a Federal agency *not* using PostgreSQL?

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 10:07 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Government Agencies using PostgreSQL:
City of Garden Grove, CA
National Gallery
Media Library project of the Library of Congress
Several highway departments (using ShareChive)
Three large Federal agencies I'm not allowed to mention :-(

Sandia Labs
US Army
Dept of Forestry
State of California
NCSA
NOAA

I know of at least one main office in the State of Utah that uses
PostgreSQL as well.

-Robby

--
/******************************************************
* Robby Russell, Owner.Developer.Geek
* PLANET ARGON, Open Source Solutions & Web Hosting
* Portland, Oregon | p: 503.351.4730 | f: 815.642.4068
* www.planetargon.com | www.robbyonrails.com
*******************************************************/

On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 13:01, Bryan Encina wrote:

So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I

would greatly

appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just

the project

name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details

you have and

can share.

Wasn't the previous "Featured User" quote on the postgresql.org website from
a representative of the City of Garden Grove in CA?

Noel Proffitt, http://www.ci.garden-grove.ca.us/

There doesn't seem to

be a way to view the past featured user comments, but I'm pretty sure this
was the case.

On my personal todo list, but not high at the moment. (Let me add it to
the web todo list though in case anyone wants to jump on it)

He/she may be willing to provide more info if you can find

out who it was.

Just to hear Josh groan i'll mention that you can look up the past
quotes via cvs if you really need them.

Also, for the OP, you could check out devis, which is a postgresql
friendly consulting company that specializes in government work.
(http://www.devis.com/Clients/)

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Josh Berkus wrote:

Josh,

Sandia Labs
US Army
Dept of Forestry
State of California
NCSA
NOAA

Wow, amazingly enough, the above doesn't include any of the three. Is there
a Federal agency *not* using PostgreSQL?

Well NSA maybe ;). I know that the Navy uses it as well.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org wrote on 05/19/2005 11:35:07 AM:

...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application

database.

Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional

information because

Postgres is open source.

So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I

would

think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory

products!

It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes

bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can.

If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? No one... which means

the guy who approved it is the scape goat -- which is why he wants proof
that others have found it worthy...

Silly, but that's probably what's happening.

Exactly that has happened to me. Indemnification is the term. I was also
told that before using any opensource project I had to locally
configuration control the product and perform a complete review of the
source. I don't have to do that with Oracle because they've got lawyers,
and we've got lawyers, and they know each other's phone numbers. Anybody
have a phone number for PostgreSQL's lawyer? Don't flame me, please, I'm
really kidding about the lawyer thing, but the rest is true.

Rick

-philip

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your

* Mark Steckel (mjs@eworldes.com) wrote:

So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly
appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project
name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and
can share.

Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the list. And since I'm leaving on
vacation in 3 days, please CC my coworkers at postgres-info@eworldes.com

Sorry about the ugly links, but...
GSA Networx Acquisition:

http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/channelView.do?pageTypeId=8199&channelId=-16201

GSA Networx Hosting Center:
http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?programId=11454&channelId=-16201&ooid=16100&contentId=18739&pageTypeId=8199&contentType=GSA_BASIC&programPage=%2Fep%2Fprogram%2FgsaBasic.jsp&P=TOS3

GSA Networx Hosting Center User Instructions:
http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_BASIC/NHC%20User%20Instructions%20v1.4_R2-wT3-j_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf

Check out the bottom of page 2. :)

Enjoy... :)

Stephen

The NOAA National Data Buoy Center is a government customer
(there are many commercial customers) for our wXstation(R)
product, which uses PostgreSQL as its database.

The number of government customers may increase dramatically
in the near future.

--
P. J. "Josh" Rovero Sonalysts, Inc.
Email: rovero@sonalysts.com www.sonalysts.com 215 Parkway North
Work: (860)326-3671 or 442-4355 Waterford CT 06385
***********************************************************************

Josh Berkus wrote:

Three large Federal agencies I'm not allowed to mention :-(

I'm curious why they can't be mentioned? A NDA regarding the
technologies used? Classified projects?

It seems in many cases even relatively security conscious
agencies don't mind vendors announcing their use of open
source projects. IBM's Linux/DB2 wins in DHS information
sharing networks, and Oracle's Linux/Oracle win on the
Department of Homeland Security's own web site come to mind.

I'm not doubting you. I know one similar case of a
government agency using postgresql, but in this case
the reason I can't mentioned it is a matter of one
vendor's partnership agreement with another large
proprietary database vendor. I'm just curious if
the matter was a legal issue with the government
or if it was a contractual issue with a vendor.

Ron Mayer wrote:

Josh Berkus wrote:

Three large Federal agencies I'm not allowed to mention :-(

I'm curious why they can't be mentioned? A NDA regarding the
technologies used? Classified projects?

I would guess because the people above them don't know their using
PostgreSQL ;)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats,
rather than proven results.

No, it could be that the OP's organization is looking for some proof
of postgresql's results.

A lot of people are familiar with the criteria for evaluating
a company or commercial product. Open source products have a
different set of criteria that are sometimes a bit harder to
pin down.

An advantage of a commercial product is that you can ask the
vendor for references from people doing similar work to
what you are doing. As we can see here, that's a bit more
difficult for open source projects.

It's frustrating, but just one of the hurdles you have to face
when advocating open source software. My first experience with
this was in 1991, when I introduced Tcl and Perl into NEC. It
did not happen until Larry Wall's book came out and I could
answer the question "why are these guys doing this? how are
they going to make money to continue to do this?" with "hey
they're giving away the software and making a fortune on the
books!"

Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor
understanding of the scientific method get involved.

As opposed to people with science degrees but poor understanding
of business methods? :-)

Cheers,
Mark

--
Mark Harrison
Pixar Animation Studios

On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:19:16AM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Josh,

Sandia Labs
US Army
Dept of Forestry
State of California
NCSA
NOAA

Wow, amazingly enough, the above doesn't include any of the three.
Is there a Federal agency *not* using PostgreSQL?

I doubt it.

As I see it, PostgreSQL is in approximately the position that Linux,
Apache, Perl, &c. were in the late 1990s, which is to say that it's
already been sneaked, er, I mean "informally deployed" into just about
every IT organization worth the name, and is just starting to get some
official recognition.

Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778

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