Does this look ethical to you?

Tony Caduto wrote:

I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php

I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way.

This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what
others thought about this.

I don't have a problem with it, especially since they mention it is
their version of PostgreSQL (they use our name).

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Tony Caduto wrote:

I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php

I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way.

This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what
others thought about this.

Well IMHO it is PostgreSQL related as you are both offering a PostgreSQL
product. It is not
uncommon to do something like this as a keyword on Google Adwords or
something but
to place a direct URL....

I would call it fairly shady. I am guessing that by doing so they are
getting placement within search
engines or something.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Tony Caduto wrote:

I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php

I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way.

This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what
others thought about this.

I don't have a problem with it, especially since they mention it is
their version of PostgreSQL (they use our name).

I might be misunderstanding your point Bruce but I believe Tony's
problem is not that they are using
PostgreSQL's name but they are using Pg Lightning in their name which is
Tony's product not
Navicats..

Think about as if Command Prompt would to start using SRAAPowergres in
their URL's..

At least that I how I read it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Tony Caduto wrote:

I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php

I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way.

This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what
others thought about this.

I don't have a problem with it, especially since they mention it is
their version of PostgreSQL (they use our name).

I might be misunderstanding your point Bruce but I believe Tony's
problem is not that they are using
PostgreSQL's name but they are using Pg Lightning in their name which is
Tony's product not
Navicats..

Think about as if Command Prompt would to start using SRAAPowergres in
their URL's..

At least that I how I read it.

Oh, I thought they were shipping PG lighening admin too. The URL no
longer works so I wonder if they thought better of the practice.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Tony Caduto wrote:

I would call it fairly shady. I am guessing that by doing so they are
getting placement within search
engines or something.

Hi Joshua,
Yep, that's the part that I don't like.
Using Postgresql in there is one thing as it's good because you have to
have Postgresql in order to use any admin program.

I once by mistake used Instant Messenger in a title on one of my pages
and had links that had Instant Messenger and AOL had a cow and made me
remove the links. I don't see how Navicat using PG Lightning Admin in
their links and title is any different.

They must be threatend by my product :-)

I did ask them nicely to remove the link, we shall see.

Thanks for the input.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

Tony.....

I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php

I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way.

Well, technically they aren't hijacking your product name, they are
hijacking some of your potential users by putting your product name in the
page title and page url and saying they have a replacement that's better.

It sucks.

However, there are some positives.

They didn't put your product name in the page keywords.

It makes them look bad, sort of like when politicians sling mud. I make
it a point NEVER to vote for a candidate that does that. (Obviously I
vote for a lot of Independents).

They are giving your product some extra credence by even using it as a
measuring stick to theirs.

But it still sucks......

Occasionally I find somebody stealing my Musicians Classified Listings and
I've had the same ticked off feeling. In the long run I just grin and
take it (and do what I can to make it harder for other sites to steal
listings, but I can't think how you could do something like that in this
situation).

Maybe if you take the high road you could work something out that would
help you both?

Well, good luck with it....

brew

==========================================================================
Strange Brew (brew@theMode.com)
Check out my Stock Option Covered Call website http://www.callpix.com
and my Musician's Online Database Exchange http://www.TheMode.com
==========================================================================

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Oh, I thought they were shipping PG lighening admin too. The URL no
longer works so I wonder if they thought better of the practice.

No, PG Lightning Admin is my product name, and I think they are doing
something with a link to my page in their page because my page is down
now also , something is really fishy with Navicat.

Seems odd that my ISP is down and their page has a input problem...hmmm

I did send them a email about it about 1/2 hour ago, so maybe they are
in the process of fixing this issue.

Thanks for your input on this guys.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

Tony.....

Maybe if you take the high road you could work something out that would
help you both?

Well, since the page is gone already I'd say both parties seem to be
playing fair.

Good deal!

brew

==========================================================================
Strange Brew (brew@theMode.com)
Check out my Stock Option Covered Call website http://www.callpix.com
and my Musician's Online Database Exchange http://www.TheMode.com
==========================================================================

they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin:

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php

this one renders...

both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a cached
view on google.

brew@theMode.com wrote:

Well, since the page is gone already I'd say both parties seem to be
playing fair.

Good deal!

brew

I don't know about that, the link is still there, it just gives a error
of No input file specified, which just indicates the index.php in
http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/ is gone or having a problem.

I asked them nicely to remove it within 24 hours, so we shall see.

Thanks again for the input.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

George Pavlov wrote:

they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin:

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php

this one renders...

both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a cached
view on google.

At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not really hurting
anyone since (at least I don't think) no one is making money off of PG
Admin III.

I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I would never
use Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on my site. I use words
like "Other Companies" etc.

I would like to know how they get such good placment on all the search
engines, you do a search on "Postgresql GUI admin" and all you get on
the first page is their stuff.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

I don't know about that, the link is still there, it just gives a
error of No input file specified, which just indicates the index.php
in http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/ is gone or having a
problem.

I asked them nicely to remove it within 24 hours, so we shall see.

Well the could just have a generic url rewriter....

the blue links at the top (as it states in the top right) are sponsor'd
links ... they pay for those to be there, and, I'd imagine, pay quite
heavily :(

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Tony Caduto wrote:

George Pavlov wrote:

they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin:

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php

this one renders...

both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a cached
view on google.

At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not really hurting
anyone since (at least I don't think) no one is making money off of PG Admin
III.

I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I would never use
Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on my site. I use words like
"Other Companies" etc.

I would like to know how they get such good placment on all the search
engines, you do a search on "Postgresql GUI admin" and all you get on the
first page is their stuff.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

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----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

George Pavlov wrote:

they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin:

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php

this one renders...

both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a
cached view on google.

At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not
really hurting anyone since (at least I don't think) no one
is making money off of PG Admin III.

I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I
would never use Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on
my site. I use words like "Other Companies" etc.

If you don't use "other companies" by name, you shouldn't use pgAdmin by
name either, IMHO. But as long as you list it as "alternative for ...",
it should be just fine to list any product name, as long as any
comparison is fair. (And if it's not fair, you should just take it off.

Now, I think actually putting it in the *title* of your site is not a
nice way to play. Again, IMHO of course.

I don't buy the argument that it makes a difference wether people pay
for the product or not. There are still people putting considerable
amount of work into pgAdmin, as with most opensource products. I don't
see why they should be treated differently from people putting work in
and getting paid for it.

I would like to know how they get such good placment on all
the search engines, you do a search on "Postgresql GUI admin"
and all you get on the first page is their stuff.

You mean like the way sticking "pgadmin" in the title of a page not
related with it will get you traffic not "meant" to go there?
It's not as "bad" as sticking it in the URL, but in my book it's
certainly not far off.

In this case, that looks like paid links. And "spamming" every download
site they can find. Sort of like any search for "pgadmin alternative"
brings up links like http://www.soft3k.com/kw/pgadmin-alternative.htm.

The idea is to match the url and title to the keywords which will bring
the results higher up in teh search. Your main point (per the title of
the site) is "pgadmin III alternative". Theirs is, again per the title
of the site, "the worlds best gui for windows, linux and macos x".

(Your site comes back up on the ranking if you put in "postgresql gui
admin client", because then it takes over from the pgadmin part, I
guess)

//Magnus

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Hagander [mailto:mha@sollentuna.net]
Sent: 24 January 2006 09:05
To: Tony Caduto; George Pavlov
Cc: Bruce Momjian; pgsql-general@postgresql.org; Dave Page
Subject: RE: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you?

George Pavlov wrote:

they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin:

http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php

this one renders...

both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a
cached view on google.

At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not
really hurting anyone since (at least I don't think) no one
is making money off of PG Admin III.

There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, including
at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In
addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long
established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't even spelt
or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)!

I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I
would never use Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on
my site. I use words like "Other Companies" etc.

If it helps at all, we ask our supporters to follow this guideline when
setting up keywords etc on software directory type sites:

"These should reflect any aspect of what pgAdmin does, and what it works
with. <b>Under no circumstances should you include competitors company
or product names in keywords.</b> "

I would appreciate it if you would hold yourself to a similar standard
and stop using pgAdmin's name to promote your product.

Regards, Dave.

Dave Page wrote:

There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, including
at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In
addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long
established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't even spelt
or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)!

Hi Dave,
Those companies simply bundle pgAdmin III, they don't sell it, there is
a big difference. I know for a fact the ones you are talking about and
the version they bundle have no changes over the stock one at all.

I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to pgAdmin III is
wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big advantage being distributed with
the Windows version of Postgresql. It almost has monopoly written on it
since the user is not given any idea that there is anything else
available. At least you are not forced to install it, but still a
HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product.

pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair maybe a link
should be placed in the windows pgAdmin installer informing users of
other comercially available options.

Thanks for the heads up on the spelling, I was not aware it was spelled
like that.

Later,

Tony

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony.caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
Sent: 24 January 2006 13:56
To: Dave Page
Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you?

Those companies simply bundle pgAdmin III, they don't sell
it, there is
a big difference. I know for a fact the ones you are talking
about and
the version they bundle have no changes over the stock one at all.

One of the two has extensively modified it. I don't know about the
other.

Whether or not the sell it seperately is not the point though - they do
sell it as part of the product suite they offer.

I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to pgAdmin III is
wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big advantage being
distributed with
the Windows version of Postgresql. It almost has monopoly
written on it
since the user is not given any idea that there is anything else
available. At least you are not forced to install it, but still a
HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product.

It's open source and is certainly the best option a present to bundle
with the installer. If you want to open source PG Lightning Admin, and
add the missing features that pgAdmin has such as Slony support, job
scheduling, graphical explain and UI translations into a number of
different languages, then I'm sure Magnus and I would be happy to look
at including it.

pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair
maybe a link
should be placed in the windows pgAdmin installer informing users of
other comercially available options.

By that token, every Linux distribution would have to tell users about
MS Windows whilst it was installing. Does the fact that they don't mean
they aren't playing fair? Should the PostgreSQL distributions also
mention Oracle or DB2?

Regards, Dave

There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin,
including at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL
companies. In addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading
off our long established name, which to add insult to injury you
haven't even spelt or formatted correctly (it is, and has

always been pgAdmin)!

Hi Dave,
Those companies simply bundle pgAdmin III, they don't sell
it, there is a big difference. I know for a fact the ones
you are talking about and the version they bundle have no
changes over the stock one at all.

Then your facts are wrong. At least one of the ones Dave is talking
about has done extensive modifications for it. And sell it as part of a
commercial product. (I would assume that's what he's talking about. If
not, this is a different company, but it's still there)

I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to
pgAdmin III is wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big
advantage being distributed with the Windows version of
Postgresql. It almost has monopoly written on it since the
user is not given any idea that there is anything else
available. At least you are not forced to install it, but
still a HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product.

We (pginstaller hat goes on) don't know of any competing products. We
will be happy to consider bundling any competing product, including PG
Lightning Admin. One of the most important things in order to be
distributed as part of an open source product is that the parts are open
source. If PGLA (or a lite version if necessary) is available under an
OSS license, we'll definitly consider bundling it.
(We have considered bundling phpPgAdmin, but haven't found a good way to
do it without dragging in a huge load of dependencies)

If that's not acceptable, there is nothing preventing you from
delivering a "Lightning PostgreSQL". All the parts that are in the
installer are open source, it's just a matter of making the modification
to put in pg lightning admin there. You might need to do something about
the GPL stuff, don't know for sure. The BSD parts definitly permit it.

But to be clear, I don't think it's wrong to say that PGLA is an
alternative to pgAdmin. Because that's what it is. It's just a matter
of *how* it's done.

pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair
maybe a link should be placed in the windows pgAdmin
installer informing users of other comercially available options.

You're kidding, right? Should we also mention in the PostgreSQL
installer that you should perhaps look at Oracle or DB2? And I don't see
most Linux distributions informing the users that Windows might be an
alternative.

We *do* put up links to commercial management software on the website
(PostgreSQL website, because that's where it applies), and we post news
about it. IMHO, that's about as far as "the project" should go when it
comes to "free marketing for commercial software".

//Magnus

There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, including
at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In
addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long
established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't even spelt
or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)!

here is my keywords:

Postgresql,pg,admin,GUI,alternative,PSQL,pgsql,gui,postgres

I removed the III.

Not that it would ever have hurt pgAdmin III, but to show good faith I
changed them in my shareware pad file and on my homepage.

No how about getting a link or something in the win32 Postgresql
installer back to the commercial products page:
http://www.postgresql.org/download/commercial

Thanks,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com