a web framework for postgresql?
Hi,
Most of the web applications I work on are nothing more than front-ends
to postgresql. I have used Perl (CGI), Java, C# and am now looking at
Django. Each generation of frameworks lessens the pain of donig
web-apps, but it still seems redundant.
Does any one know of a framework where the database server (or a
web/app server integrated with a DB server) serves web pages? The
database contains the data-model; names of tables, names of attributes,
their types, foreign key relationships among tables...that's A LOT of
information. Sql query, views or stored procs could serve as 'reports'
served off the data. Perhaps the only thing that needs to be outside a
database is something that describes how the data is to be displayed
(CSS). There could be some java/c#/python/ruby/whatever engine which
takes all the information provided in the database and generate
html/xhtml, default css, javascript validation, etc....but all that
should be invisible to the user.
Any one know of such a framework?
(I'm asking this in pgsql because such a framework will have to be
fairly closely linked to a database...and I mainly use pgsql).
On 01.03.2006, at 19:39 Uhr, falcon wrote:
Any one know of such a framework?
(I'm asking this in pgsql because such a framework will have to be
fairly closely linked to a database...and I mainly use pgsql).
Hmm. No. I don't think you can have this combined with what is often
called "business logic". A lot of stuff is described in the db model,
but that's only one thing.
What about process flows, permissions, login handling, session
handling, design, performance optimization and so on?
I use WebObjects (http://www.apple.com/webobjects) as my main
development environment and I found that every application is unique
in a good percentage of its features.
For "administration" application the included DirectToWeb-Framwork in
combination with a powerful community based framework
("ProjectWonder") is a VERY powerful tool when it comes to rapid
development. It saves me days and weeks of work - I just couldn't do
my job anymore without it and developing applications in a "standard
way". But it has a very steep learning curve and is sometimes hard to
handle and often frustration - until you learn how not to fight the
tool.
Frontend applications like online shops, portals and so on are then
developed in a more conventional way with components and handwritten
xhtml/css.
If you have a Mac for development it's worth a look. Deployment can
go anywhere (in theory - we have only used Linux and Mac OS X Server
so far) as long as a Java runtime is installed.
cug
--
PharmaLine, Essen, GERMANY
Software and Database Development
Attachments:
falcon wrote:
Hi,
Most of the web applications I work on are nothing more than front-ends
to postgresql. I have used Perl (CGI), Java, C# and am now looking at
Django. Each generation of frameworks lessens the pain of donig
web-apps, but it still seems redundant.Does any one know of a framework where the database server (or a
web/app server integrated with a DB server) serves web pages? The
database contains the data-model; names of tables, names of attributes,
their types, foreign key relationships among tables...that's A LOT of
information. Sql query, views or stored procs could serve as 'reports'
served off the data. Perhaps the only thing that needs to be outside a
database is something that describes how the data is to be displayed
(CSS). There could be some java/c#/python/ruby/whatever engine which
takes all the information provided in the database and generate
html/xhtml, default css, javascript validation, etc....but all that
should be invisible to the user.Any one know of such a framework?
(I'm asking this in pgsql because such a framework will have to be
fairly closely linked to a database...and I mainly use pgsql).
I don't know of one - I think I'd be a little uneasy with that kind of model to be honest on several levels.
Complex web applications involve a lot of complex logic, which tends to be very processor intensive. It's good to be able to scale such sites by
adding more processing engines and so partitioning the logic from the database is a good idea.
We use (and wrote) Whitebeam which goes some of the way to providing a framework. It cuts down the amount of database knowledge you need by having a
defined schema that represents data in a very flexible way (although you are free to develop SQL level applications if you want to). Whitebeam uses
Postgres to model arbitrary things and the relationships between those things. The things can be CMS web pages or product catalogues. JavaScript
(server side) is then used to add the semantic meaning to those things for each application.
The Whitebeam abstraction is higher than SQL (for example it represents arbitrarily deep directories of information and provides mechanisms for
searching those) while at the same time being flexible enough to allow a wide range of data-driven applications (CMS, discussion forums, surveys,
document repositories etc).
The programme files that drive the application are still stored in the standard file system. You could store those in the database as well if you
wanted to but you'd be adding more contention for a central resource. To get the best performance you have to have a pragmatic approach to building
your system.
Most applications also of course have to use other services such as sendmail, spell checkers, image tools. The datbase is only one part of the
solution, although admittedly one you have to get right!
Pete
--
Whitebeam : (http://www.whitebeam.org)
YellowHawk : (http://www.yellowhawk.co.uk)
Pete,
I agree with you about websites containing lots of complex logic. It
is an interesting excercise to extract out this logic from the day to
day business of web app development. In any case, as I think more
about various if/else claues or business specific computations, I get
even more convinced that either many of our daily routines can be
abstracted away, or partitioned (I guess the way the MVC model keeps
people like me from putting everything together in a complex mess).
It is interesting that much of the software packages specifically
marketed for 'business logic' (various rules engines) are, at their
most fundamental, not very different from relational DBs.
I am also fairly certain that whole programming languages (their
semantics and their syntax) can be defined within relational DBs.
So why not attempt to use databases as more than just data stores?
P.S. I actually don't think the kind of framework I am looking for
exists (oracle has html db, but I haven't been able to study it yet).
And I should add that I realize theoretical Relational Dbs are
different from modern implementations, but we still have a base to work
on.
falcon schrieb:
Pete,
...
So why not attempt to use databases as more than just data stores?
P.S. I actually don't think the kind of framework I am looking for
exists (oracle has html db, but I haven't been able to study it yet).
And I should add that I realize theoretical Relational Dbs are
different from modern implementations, but we still have a base to work
on.
Well, strip the relational part from the db and you already have it.
We call it Zope :-)
Regards
Tino
On Wednesday 01 March 2006 14:54, falcon wrote:
P.S. I actually don't think the kind of framework I am looking for
exists (oracle has html db, but I haven't been able to study it yet).
And I should add that I realize theoretical Relational Dbs are
different from modern implementations, but we still have a base to work
on.
If your up to doing experimentation, you could see about combining one of the
pl langs and tie them into one of the various web application frameworks. I'm
thinking you could try making plruby functions that use rails, or possibly
rigg something up in plpython with django or turbogears. It's all very
handwavy, but since you can use gems inside of plruby, who knows... you'd
have to figure out how to actually server web requests back and forth from
within the db... really it doesnt seem worth it to me, but you might be able
to get something together.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert,
As soon as I have some time, I'll be checking out pl-python in more
detail.
Tino,
I don't know anything about zope, I'll have a look see :)
Drupal is really nice extensible web framework written in PHP.
John DeSoi, Ph.D.
http://pgedit.com/
Power Tools for PostgreSQL
falcon wrote:
Hi,
Most of the web applications I work on are nothing more than front-ends
to postgresql. I have used Perl (CGI), Java, C# and am now looking at
Django. Each generation of frameworks lessens the pain of donig
web-apps, but it still seems redundant.Does any one know of a framework where the database server (or a
web/app server integrated with a DB server) serves web pages? The
database contains the data-model; names of tables, names of attributes,
their types, foreign key relationships among tables...that's A LOT of
information. Sql query, views or stored procs could serve as 'reports'
served off the data. Perhaps the only thing that needs to be outside a
database is something that describes how the data is to be displayed
(CSS). There could be some java/c#/python/ruby/whatever engine which
takes all the information provided in the database and generate
html/xhtml, default css, javascript validation, etc....but all that
should be invisible to the user.Any one know of such a framework?
(I'm asking this in pgsql because such a framework will have to be
fairly closely linked to a database...and I mainly use pgsql).---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
You could probably do put together a single executable with ZILD
http://zild.org/index.csp and a DB libraray (sqlite, other embeddable
DB) or package ZILD linked to libpq along with a PostgreSQL installation.
We also use WebObjects with PostgreSQL and it's awesome as a web
development framework. We have it deployed on Solaris and OS X Server.
____________________________________________________________________
Brendan Duddridge | CTO | 403-277-5591 x24 | brendan@clickspace.com
ClickSpace Interactive Inc.
Suite L100, 239 - 10th Ave. SE
Calgary, AB T2G 0V9
On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:58 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote:
Show quoted text
On 01.03.2006, at 19:39 Uhr, falcon wrote:
Any one know of such a framework?
(I'm asking this in pgsql because such a framework will have to be
fairly closely linked to a database...and I mainly use pgsql).Hmm. No. I don't think you can have this combined with what is
often called "business logic". A lot of stuff is described in the
db model, but that's only one thing.What about process flows, permissions, login handling, session
handling, design, performance optimization and so on?I use WebObjects (http://www.apple.com/webobjects) as my main
development environment and I found that every application is
unique in a good percentage of its features.For "administration" application the included DirectToWeb-Framwork
in combination with a powerful community based framework
("ProjectWonder") is a VERY powerful tool when it comes to rapid
development. It saves me days and weeks of work - I just couldn't
do my job anymore without it and developing applications in a
"standard way". But it has a very steep learning curve and is
sometimes hard to handle and often frustration - until you learn
how not to fight the tool.Frontend applications like online shops, portals and so on are then
developed in a more conventional way with components and
handwritten xhtml/css.If you have a Mac for development it's worth a look. Deployment can
go anywhere (in theory - we have only used Linux and Mac OS X
Server so far) as long as a Java runtime is installed.cug
--
PharmaLine, Essen, GERMANY
Software and Database Development