Mailing list setup issue

Started by Chris Velevitchalmost 20 years ago16 messagesgeneral
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#1Chris Velevitch
chris.velevitch@gmail.com

It seems that all the postgresql mailing lists don't allow you to
automatically reply to the list only the sender. I don't get this with
all my other mailings list. Who I contact to have this rectified?

Chris
--
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
www.flashdev.org.au

#2The Hermit Hacker
scrappy@hub.org
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#1)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Chris Velevitch wrote:

It seems that all the postgresql mailing lists don't allow you to
automatically reply to the list only the sender. I don't get this with
all my other mailings list. Who I contact to have this rectified?

What do you mean? Do you mean a Reply-To: header added? If so, check out
the help docs, but there is a 'set replyto' you can add that will have it
added for your email address, without affecting everyone that doesn't want
it ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

#3Guy Rouillier
guyr@masergy.com
In reply to: The Hermit Hacker (#2)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

Chris Velevitch wrote:

It seems that all the postgresql mailing lists don't allow you to
automatically reply to the list only the sender. I don't get this
with all my other mailings list. Who I contact to have this
rectified?

Done on purpose. Use "reply to all".

--
Guy Rouillier

#4Chris Velevitch
chris.velevitch@gmail.com
In reply to: The Hermit Hacker (#2)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On 4/27/06, Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@postgresql.org> wrote:

What do you mean? Do you mean a Reply-To: header added? If so, check out
the help docs, but there is a 'set replyto' you can add that will have it
added for your email address, without affecting everyone that doesn't want
it ...

help docs? There are help documents on the mailing list system that
used by postgresql.org? The only help documents I can find is
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ that only talks about postgresql.
Where do I find these mailing list help documents. I didn't anyone can
just go and change the postgresql.org mailing list software
configuration?

Chris
--
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
www.flashdev.org.au

#5Chris Velevitch
chris.velevitch@gmail.com
In reply to: Guy Rouillier (#3)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On 4/27/06, Guy Rouillier <guyr@masergy.com> wrote:

Done on purpose. Use "reply to all".

Isn't that a bad habit to get into? There's been a lot of press about
people who habitually reply all.

Besides, isn't the point of a mailing list is that it's a global
public discussion on a topic in which all subscribers can 'listen in'
on the discussion. You never know what useful information can be
obtained from seeing the full discussion.

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

So what's the reasoning behind this choice?

Chris
--
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
www.flashdev.org.au

#6Kris Jurka
books@ejurka.com
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#5)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Chris Velevitch wrote:

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

So what's the reasoning behind this choice?

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

Kris Jurka

#7Martijn van Oosterhout
kleptog@svana.org
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#5)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 05:34:11PM +1000, Chris Velevitch wrote:

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

So what's the reasoning behind this choice?

All sorts of reasons. One of the main ones being that list servers are
sometimes slow and this delay can harm useful discussions. This way a
group can have a useful discussion with quick replies and the list
server will catchup sometime later.

Fortunatly we have a mailing list manager that allows you to choose
which way you want it.

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> http://svana.org/kleptog/

Show quoted text

From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate.

#8Chris Velevitch
chris.velevitch@gmail.com
In reply to: Kris Jurka (#6)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On 4/27/06, Kris Jurka <books@ejurka.com> wrote:

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

So what's the reasoning behind this choice?

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

The author of that articles states:-

"One day I accidentally sent a private, personal reply out over one of
my own damn lists."

It's like he accidentally drove down a one way street in the wrong
direction, so he now drives everywhere in reverse, just in case it
happens again. He obviously got surprised by that, in the "Principle
of Least Surprise", it surprises me to find only one person gets my
response.

This article is 4 years old and he is unix user who prefers elm as a
mail reader. I'm fine with his choice, but I use 3 mailer readers
(gmail, outlook, opera) and none of them have a the same features as
elm.

I think it's an inappropriate choice given the current norms.

Chris
--
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
www.flashdev.org.au

#9Chris Velevitch
chris.velevitch@gmail.com
In reply to: Martijn van Oosterhout (#7)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On 4/27/06, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> wrote:

Fortunatly we have a mailing list manager that allows you to choose
which way you want it.

Please explain what you mean by this?

Chris
--
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
www.flashdev.org.au

#10Martijn van Oosterhout
kleptog@svana.org
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#9)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 06:59:19PM +1000, Chris Velevitch wrote:

On 4/27/06, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> wrote:

Fortunatly we have a mailing list manager that allows you to choose
which way you want it.

Please explain what you mean by this?

Go to the archives:

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/

Select "To subscribe or unsubscribe"

Goto "Sign-in" and Sign in

Goto "Unsubscribe or Change Settings" and tick (I beleive) replyto.

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> http://svana.org/kleptog/

Show quoted text

From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate.

#11Chris Velevitch
chris.velevitch@gmail.com
In reply to: Martijn van Oosterhout (#10)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On 4/27/06, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> wrote:

Go to the archives:

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/

Select "To subscribe or unsubscribe"

Goto "Sign-in" and Sign in

Goto "Unsubscribe or Change Settings" and tick (I beleive) replyto.

Have a nice day,

Thanks for that information.

Chris
--
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
www.flashdev.org.au

#12Geoffrey
esoteric@3times25.net
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#5)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

Chris Velevitch wrote:

On 4/27/06, Guy Rouillier <guyr@masergy.com> wrote:

Done on purpose. Use "reply to all".

Isn't that a bad habit to get into? There's been a lot of press about
people who habitually reply all.

Besides, isn't the point of a mailing list is that it's a global
public discussion on a topic in which all subscribers can 'listen in'
on the discussion. You never know what useful information can be
obtained from seeing the full discussion.

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

So what's the reasoning behind this choice?

Look, this really has become a religious issue. There are list that do
it both ways. Let's not waste anymore bandwidth on the list with it.
Learn to live with the way the list is setup.

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both. - Benjamin Franklin

#13Bruno Wolff III
bruno@wolff.to
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#5)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 17:34:11 +1000,
Chris Velevitch <chris.velevitch@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/27/06, Guy Rouillier <guyr@masergy.com> wrote:

Done on purpose. Use "reply to all".

Isn't that a bad habit to get into? There's been a lot of press about
people who habitually reply all.

Reply all is the normal thing to do. If people don't want the extra copies
they can use mail-followup-to headers to indicate that (or on majordomo
lists such as used here, you can have the list server not send you copies
when you address is copied on replies). By replying to all, it leaves the
recipient the option to handle the mail differently when they are cc'd.

Besides, isn't the point of a mailing list is that it's a global
public discussion on a topic in which all subscribers can 'listen in'
on the discussion. You never know what useful information can be
obtained from seeing the full discussion.

That's why you are supposed to do a reply all unless you have some specific
reason not to. (e.g. a thank you response that doesn't add to the discussion).
Also note that nonmembers can post to the lists (though a moderator needs to
approve their messages), so you aren't even guarenteed that a poster is on
the list.

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

They are probably nontechnical lists. Most lists that I subscribe to don't
have broken reply-to headers. (And when they do, I have my mail filter remove
them, but that still prevents their normal use.)

So what's the reasoning behind this choice?

It breaks the normal use of reply-to.

#14Bruno Wolff III
bruno@wolff.to
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#4)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 17:22:09 +1000,
Chris Velevitch <chris.velevitch@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/27/06, Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@postgresql.org> wrote:

What do you mean? Do you mean a Reply-To: header added? If so, check out
the help docs, but there is a 'set replyto' you can add that will have it
added for your email address, without affecting everyone that doesn't want
it ...

help docs? There are help documents on the mailing list system that
used by postgresql.org? The only help documents I can find is
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ that only talks about postgresql.
Where do I find these mailing list help documents. I didn't anyone can
just go and change the postgresql.org mailing list software
configuration?

While this should be documented more obviously on the mailing list pages,
you can get documentation by sending email to the mailing list server.
(It would be nice if the nonchanging information were available as web pages -
hint hint.)
Send a message to majordomo@postgresql.org with a body of:
help
That will get you started.

#15Bruno Wolff III
bruno@wolff.to
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#8)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 18:44:25 +1000,
Chris Velevitch <chris.velevitch@gmail.com> wrote:

"One day I accidentally sent a private, personal reply out over one of
my own damn lists."

It's like he accidentally drove down a one way street in the wrong
direction, so he now drives everywhere in reverse, just in case it
happens again. He obviously got surprised by that, in the "Principle
of Least Surprise", it surprises me to find only one person gets my
response.

The cost of sending a reply to only one person by mistake is almost always
going to b relatively low. The cost of accidentally replying to everyone
will often be relatively high, so it makes sense to use a system that trades
off probability of replying to all by mistake for probability of replying
to just the sender by mistake. But you are correct, that isn't a great
reason to determine how lists operate. The real reason is that it breaks
the use of the preexisting reply-to header and even though that header is
rarely used, mailing lists shouldn't be replacing it.

This article is 4 years old and he is unix user who prefers elm as a
mail reader. I'm fine with his choice, but I use 3 mailer readers
(gmail, outlook, opera) and none of them have a the same features as
elm.

I think it's an inappropriate choice given the current norms.

Your right, he should be using mutt.

#16Tom Lane
tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us
In reply to: Chris Velevitch (#5)
Re: Mailing list setup issue

"Chris Velevitch" <chris.velevitch@gmail.com> writes:

In addition, it's not the norm. I subscribe to lots of mailing lists
and postgresql.org lists are the only ones that I've seem do that.

You may think it's not the norm, but you're mistaken. This is how the
PG lists are run, as well as most other tech-savvy lists I belong to.
Get used to it, or at least learn to configure your subscription the way
you want it.

regards, tom lane