Is there a shortage of postgresql skilled ops people
Hello -
Over the past couple of years I have made use of postgresql as my database
of choice when developing new software. During that time, my clients have
in multiple cases eventually come back to me and requested a re-targeting
to "Any database that we (my client) can find skilled ops staff to
support." In a most recent case, professional recruiters were employed to
try to find such people. The search was disappointing at best.
My question for this community is, what do enterprises that you deploy
postgresql within do for skilled operations staffing? I can understand
trying to convert a mysql or Oracle person to work on postgresql, but it
would be very helpful to have a potential talent pool to draw from that
was similar to those others. Finding people with HA, scaling and
performance tuning knowledge is something that seems impossible to find
except in people wanting to be developers.
The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale projects.
What do others do and/or experience?
Thanks in advance - Marc
On 3/27/07, Marc Evans <Marc@softwarehackery.com> wrote:
Hello -
Over the past couple of years I have made use of postgresql as my database
of choice when developing new software. During that time, my clients have
in multiple cases eventually come back to me and requested a re-targeting
to "Any database that we (my client) can find skilled ops staff to
support." In a most recent case, professional recruiters were employed to
try to find such people. The search was disappointing at best.My question for this community is, what do enterprises that you deploy
postgresql within do for skilled operations staffing? I can understand
trying to convert a mysql or Oracle person to work on postgresql, but it
would be very helpful to have a potential talent pool to draw from that
was similar to those others. Finding people with HA, scaling and
performance tuning knowledge is something that seems impossible to find
except in people wanting to be developers.The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale projects.What do others do and/or experience?
PostgreSQL talent is in high demand. From perspective of
maintainability, this is probably the only drawback (but a serious
one) to choose it as a platform to run a company on. There is, IMO, a
good reason for this...pg people tend to be very good and tend to stay
employed...
If I was in your position, I would suggest contracting is the best way
to go for those companies, either through yourself (the obvious
choice), or hook them up with some of the bigger names in the
postgresql community, command prompt, agliodbs, etc.
merlin
On Mar 27, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Merlin Moncure wrote:
On 3/27/07, Marc Evans <Marc@softwarehackery.com> wrote:
Hello -
Over the past couple of years I have made use of postgresql as my
database
of choice when developing new software. During that time, my
clients have
in multiple cases eventually come back to me and requested a re-
targeting
to "Any database that we (my client) can find skilled ops staff to
support." In a most recent case, professional recruiters were
employed to
try to find such people. The search was disappointing at best.My question for this community is, what do enterprises that you
deploy
postgresql within do for skilled operations staffing? I can
understand
trying to convert a mysql or Oracle person to work on postgresql,
but it
would be very helpful to have a potential talent pool to draw from
that
was similar to those others. Finding people with HA, scaling and
performance tuning knowledge is something that seems impossible to
find
except in people wanting to be developers.The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more
people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for
me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale
projects.What do others do and/or experience?
PostgreSQL talent is in high demand. From perspective of
maintainability, this is probably the only drawback (but a serious
one) to choose it as a platform to run a company on. There is, IMO, a
good reason for this...pg people tend to be very good and tend to stay
employed...If I was in your position, I would suggest contracting is the best way
to go for those companies, either through yourself (the obvious
choice), or hook them up with some of the bigger names in the
postgresql community, command prompt, agliodbs, etc.
Not having looked myself, this is as much a question as a suggestion,
but are there not postgres dba training seminars/courses you could
recommend they send their dba's to?
erik jones <erik@myemma.com>
software developer
615-296-0838
emma(r)
Marc,
I forwarded your message to pgsql-advocacy list.
The same situation in Russia ! I think, that the major problem here is
lack of "official" training courses on PostgreSQL and certificates.
"Official" mean something that was accepted by the PostgreSQL community.
This is a real pity, since we (developers) are working on adding nice
features, making porting popular software solutions to PostgreSQL easier,
but there are no certified postgresql admins available on market.
For example, I and Teodor last year participated in porting of very
popular accounting enterprize solution from MS SQL to PostgreSQL and
there are about 800,000 installations already, so in principle, we have
big market, but people needed to be educated and certified, so company
could decide to switch from MS SQL to PostgreSQL.
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community) will
accept, support and translate to different languages. I'm willing
to contribute "Full Text Search" chapter, for example. AFAIK, we have enough
people, already wrote PostgreSQL books. I like Corry's book, for example.
I don't know how much it might costs, but I'm sure community has money for this.
As for certificates, I see no real problem. We need to design nice
certificate, translate to different languages, publish on www.postgresql and
approve a list of people, who can sign certificate. We have many members of
our community in different regions/countries, so this is not a problem.
btw, probably, this project could be a nice introducing for PostgreSQL EU.
Oleg
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Marc Evans wrote:
Hello -
Over the past couple of years I have made use of postgresql as my database of
choice when developing new software. During that time, my clients have in
multiple cases eventually come back to me and requested a re-targeting to
"Any database that we (my client) can find skilled ops staff to support." In
a most recent case, professional recruiters were employed to try to find such
people. The search was disappointing at best.My question for this community is, what do enterprises that you deploy
postgresql within do for skilled operations staffing? I can understand trying
to convert a mysql or Oracle person to work on postgresql, but it would be
very helpful to have a potential talent pool to draw from that was similar to
those others. Finding people with HA, scaling and performance tuning
knowledge is something that seems impossible to find except in people wanting
to be developers.The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale projects.What do others do and/or experience?
Thanks in advance - Marc
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
On 3/27/07, Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su> wrote:
Marc,
I forwarded your message to pgsql-advocacy list.The same situation in Russia ! I think, that the major problem here is
lack of "official" training courses on PostgreSQL and certificates.
"Official" mean something that was accepted by the PostgreSQL community.
This is a real pity, since we (developers) are working on adding nice
features, making porting popular software solutions to PostgreSQL easier,
but there are no certified postgresql admins available on market.
For example, I and Teodor last year participated in porting of very
popular accounting enterprize solution from MS SQL to PostgreSQL and
there are about 800,000 installations already, so in principle, we have
big market, but people needed to be educated and certified, so company
could decide to switch from MS SQL to PostgreSQL.Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community) will
accept, support and translate to different languages. I'm willing
to contribute "Full Text Search" chapter, for example. AFAIK, we have enough
people, already wrote PostgreSQL books. I like Corry's book, for example.
I don't know how much it might costs, but I'm sure community has money for this.As for certificates, I see no real problem. We need to design nice
certificate, translate to different languages, publish on www.postgresql and
approve a list of people, who can sign certificate. We have many members of
our community in different regions/countries, so this is not a problem.btw, probably, this project could be a nice introducing for PostgreSQL EU.
Hi Oleg,
I agree with your question.
I've just sent a message that question about the official
certification from postgresql.org on the advocacy list.
I hope that the european group can discuss about this important
question and eventually create an european relationship structure
(maybe at pgday ;) .
Regards
Federico
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community)
will accept, support and translate to different languages.
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/admin.html
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community)
will accept, support and translate to different languages.
With all kudos to that link, that is not a handbook it is a reference.
Joshua D. Drake
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community)
will accept, support and translate to different languages.With all kudos to that link, that is not a handbook it is a reference.
Well, there is a lot of descriptive text in the admin section.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community)
will accept, support and translate to different languages.
Thanks, I know it. I meant sort of training program.
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Bruce Momjian wrote:
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community)
will accept, support and translate to different languages.With all kudos to that link, that is not a handbook it is a reference.
Well, there is a lot of descriptive text in the admin section.
Lecturers should know better, but I think training course should include
control questions, the order of lecturers, how much time should be
enough to learn a lesson well, practical tasks, etc. This is what people
expects. admin.html is a good foundation, of course. We need better
illustration, on the whole, everything which makes courses professional
(I'm not a specialist, sorry). My young colleagues (Nikolay and Ivan)
are trying to setup Pgsql master class and spent several days to create
training live cd, which is a good idea.
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:54, Marc Evans wrote:
Hello -
Over the past couple of years I have made use of postgresql as my database
of choice when developing new software. During that time, my clients have
in multiple cases eventually come back to me and requested a re-targeting
to "Any database that we (my client) can find skilled ops staff to
support." In a most recent case, professional recruiters were employed to
try to find such people. The search was disappointing at best.My question for this community is, what do enterprises that you deploy
postgresql within do for skilled operations staffing? I can understand
trying to convert a mysql or Oracle person to work on postgresql, but it
would be very helpful to have a potential talent pool to draw from that
was similar to those others. Finding people with HA, scaling and
performance tuning knowledge is something that seems impossible to find
except in people wanting to be developers.The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale projects.What do others do and/or experience?
I got my current job when a recruiter was scouring the pgsql mailing
lists and emailed me asking me if I was interested in working said
company.
I guess that's one way to look for pgsql people. She just happened to
catch me right after my last company had decided to switch to Windows
and I'd decided to take a severance package and a short vacation.
I know at least three other people who would make damned good pgsql
admins, but who aren't necessarily looking for that job right now. I'm
sure most other pgsql users are in the same boat.
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Bruce Momjian wrote:
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
Probably, it's time to sponsor our book-writers and other enthusiasts
to write "PostgreSQL Administration handbook", which we (community)
will accept, support and translate to different languages.With all kudos to that link, that is not a handbook it is a reference.
Well, there is a lot of descriptive text in the admin section.
Lecturers should know better, but I think training course should include
control questions, the order of lecturers, how much time should be
enough to learn a lesson well, practical tasks, etc. This is what people
expects. admin.html is a good foundation, of course. We need better
illustration, on the whole, everything which makes courses professional
(I'm not a specialist, sorry). My young colleagues (Nikolay and Ivan)
are trying to setup Pgsql master class and spent several days to create
training live cd, which is a good idea.
My point is that the admin manual is more than a reference, not that the
admin manual is a _training_ manual.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
On 3/27/07, Erik Jones <erik@myemma.com> wrote:
Not having looked myself, this is as much a question as a suggestion, but
are there not postgres dba training seminars/courses you could recommend
they send their dba's to?
There are some classes out there but in my opinion your best bet (from
point of view of looking for good talent) is to get people that found
their way to postgresql themselves. In that sense you want to hook up
with people from the mailing lists or develop contacts from within the
community. So, training classes are useful for beefing up on
knowledge and learning new tricks, but postgresql dbas are born, not
made :)
merlin
The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale projects.What do others do and/or experience?
I think there are people around, but maybe they don't want to move etc.
If a PostgreSQL job where ever to show up in Milwaukee, I would apply
for it in a heartbeat.
Another thing is this, how hard could it possibly be for a MS SQL DBA or
Oracle DBA to pick up using PostgreSQL?
I don't think it would take a decent admin of any database to come up to
speed in a very short time as long as they were interested in doing so.
--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 15:09, Tony Caduto wrote:
The sad reality from what I have observed is that unless more people gain
those skills and want to work in ops, it's becoming very hard for me to
justify recommending postgresql for enterprise (or larger) scale projects.What do others do and/or experience?
I think there are people around, but maybe they don't want to move etc.
If a PostgreSQL job where ever to show up in Milwaukee, I would apply
for it in a heartbeat.Another thing is this, how hard could it possibly be for a MS SQL DBA or
Oracle DBA to pick up using PostgreSQL?
I don't think it would take a decent admin of any database to come up to
speed in a very short time as long as they were interested in doing so.
I've certainly converted a few MySQL and MSSQL dbas in the past.
"Merlin Moncure" <mmoncure@gmail.com> writes:
On 3/27/07, Erik Jones <erik@myemma.com> wrote:
Not having looked myself, this is as much a question as a suggestion, but
are there not postgres dba training seminars/courses you could recommend
they send their dba's to?There are some classes out there but in my opinion your best bet (from
point of view of looking for good talent) is to get people that found
their way to postgresql themselves. In that sense you want to hook up
with people from the mailing lists or develop contacts from within the
community. So, training classes are useful for beefing up on
knowledge and learning new tricks, but postgresql dbas are born, not
made :)
I have the same opinion. Just look around and see how many "certified
something" are there and how many of them *really* know the product, its
details, how to work with it.
Certifications don't even certify the minimum knowledge. They are like tests
that we do in school: they show how we are feeling and what we "know" (or
memorized during the night) at the instant of the test. Some people even
cheat on tests (not that I'm saying it is done or is common with certification
tests...).
So, if I have a good memory to retain information for a week, I'll excel in
certification tests. But then, what after that week?
I'm against certifications for any product. It just doesn't show the
reality.
--
Jorge Godoy <jgodoy@gmail.com>
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 15:58, Jorge Godoy wrote:
I have the same opinion. Just look around and see how many "certified
something" are there and how many of them *really* know the product, its
details, how to work with it.Certifications don't even certify the minimum knowledge. They are like tests
that we do in school: they show how we are feeling and what we "know" (or
memorized during the night) at the instant of the test. Some people even
cheat on tests (not that I'm saying it is done or is common with certification
tests...).So, if I have a good memory to retain information for a week, I'll excel in
certification tests. But then, what after that week?I'm against certifications for any product. It just doesn't show the
reality.
I would say that really depends on the certification. My flatmate is an
RHCE, and that is a pretty rigorous certification. Lots of applied
knowledge to fixing purposely broken computer systems.
OTOH, I've read the MCSE study guides before and was very underwhelmed.
Seemed like a guide on which button to push to get a banana.
But neither one is a substitute for 20+ years of on the job experience
of a system.
tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com (Tony Caduto) writes:
Another thing is this, how hard could it possibly be for a MS SQL DBA
or Oracle DBA to pick up using PostgreSQL?
I don't think it would take a decent admin of any database to come up
to speed in a very short time as long as they were interested in doing
so.
It's not that big a stretch as long as there is interest.
Those two are probably among the more painful from the specific
perspective that both depend on, in effect, hiding the OS from the
user to a great extent.
PostgreSQL *doesn't* have layers to hide that there is an OS.
In that particular sense, DB2 and Informix are probably moderately
easier "jumps."
There is also the factor that Oracle and Microsoft have the habit of
pretending that their products define what the applications are, as
opposed to merely being instances of the sort of application. If
people have "drunk the koolaid" and think that "it *must* be like
Oracle to be a proper DBMS," well, there's some painful unlearning
ahead. Users of not-quite-so-smugly-market-leading systems are
somewhat less likely to fall into that particular hole.
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="linuxfinances.info" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
http://linuxfinances.info/info/advocacy.html
This Bloody Century
"Early this century there was a worldwide socialist revolution. The
great battles were then between International Socialism, National
Socialism, and Democratic Socialism. Democratic Socialism won because
the inertia of democracy prevented the socialism from doing as much
damage here. Capitalism first reemerged from the ashes of National
Socialism, in Germany and Japan. It is now reemerging from the ashes
of International Socialism. Next?
After all, inertia works both ways..."
-- Mark Miller
On Mar 27, 2007, at 3:58 PM, Jorge Godoy wrote:
"Merlin Moncure" <mmoncure@gmail.com> writes:
On 3/27/07, Erik Jones <erik@myemma.com> wrote:
Not having looked myself, this is as much a question as a
suggestion, but
are there not postgres dba training seminars/courses you could
recommend
they send their dba's to?There are some classes out there but in my opinion your best bet
(from
point of view of looking for good talent) is to get people that found
their way to postgresql themselves. In that sense you want to
hook up
with people from the mailing lists or develop contacts from within
the
community. So, training classes are useful for beefing up on
knowledge and learning new tricks, but postgresql dbas are born, not
made :)I have the same opinion. Just look around and see how many "certified
something" are there and how many of them *really* know the
product, its
details, how to work with it.Certifications don't even certify the minimum knowledge. They are
like tests
that we do in school: they show how we are feeling and what we
"know" (or
memorized during the night) at the instant of the test. Some
people even
cheat on tests (not that I'm saying it is done or is common with
certification
tests...).So, if I have a good memory to retain information for a week, I'll
excel in
certification tests. But then, what after that week?I'm against certifications for any product. It just doesn't show the
reality.
While I agree with everything you guys have said on this, my point
was that client's like seeing that kind of stuff. I'm sure a lot of
companies would give that second thought to converting their systems
over if they had what they perceived as decent training available for
their existing staffs.
erik jones <erik@myemma.com>
software developer
615-296-0838
emma(r)
On Mar 27, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Tony Caduto wrote:
Another thing is this, how hard could it possibly be for a MS SQL
DBA or Oracle DBA to pick up using PostgreSQL?
I don't think it would take a decent admin of any database to come
up to speed in a very short time as long as they were interested in
doing so.
We've been working with a consultant to re-design/optimize some
existing DB systems we have running, and his background is mostly
Oracle and DB/2. Some of the optimizations -- actually operationally
related choices on how to do things -- are remarkably off-base for
Postgres. There is a *lot* to learn about a system before one can
truly "know" it.
