Which CMS/Ecommerce/Shopping cart ?

Except for Drupal's partial support, I cant find any which has a

sizeable

deployment and community size behind it. Spree is a new RoR based

system,

that would obviously work with PG, but doesnt have a sizeable deployment
base.

Drupal + Ubercart + a ton of their modules work great. It is what drives:

http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
http://www.postgresql.us
http://www.fossexperts.com/
http://www.commandprompt.com/portal

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Could you point me to any deployments of Drupal + Ubercart + Postgres ?

It felt really strange that nobody on IRC or forums could answer that they
had been involved in a postgres based deployment.

thanks!

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>wrote:

On Wed, 2010-07-28 at 22:37 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

Could you point me to any deployments of Drupal + Ubercart +
Postgres ?

Did you not see the links below?

Drupal + Ubercart + a ton of their modules work great. It is
what drives:

http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
http://www.postgresql.us
http://www.fossexperts.com/
http://www.commandprompt.com/portal

--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

--
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Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to
clients, that postgresql is viable.
It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the
postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge opposition to
have anything to do with PG in the whole CMS/e-store community. In fact I
even saw a request to eliminate postgresql support in Drupal 7 (that was
taken care of by the valiant efforts of the PG community) :
http://drupal.org/node/337146

Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal,
Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments. Again, it is relevant
because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote significantly worse
performance because of the suboptimal way that Drupal integrates with
Postgresql :
http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since - please
correct me if I am wrong.

What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?

thanks

<http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/&gt;

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>wrote:

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the
postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be asking in
#drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the Drupal forums.

This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge
opposition to have anything to do with PG in the whole CMS/e-store
community. In fact I even saw a request to eliminate postgresql
support in Drupal 7 (that was taken care of by the valiant efforts of
the PG community) : http://drupal.org/node/337146

Yes, I know. I was part of that. I would note that topic was 2 years ago
and has since long died.

Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal,
Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments. Again, it is
relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote
significantly worse performance because of the suboptimal way that

Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.

Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since -
please correct me if I am wrong.

You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is no
reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.

I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting great
performance but then again I know enough to tune both Drupal, PHP and
PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not saying you can't).

What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?

That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests. You can
also look for things like this:

http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/

That show the flexibility you get by using PostgreSQL.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:45:47 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to
the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be
asking in #drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the
Drupal forums.

Well he will spend most of the time filtering people bashing
postgres there.

Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of
Drupal, Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments.
Again, it is relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks
which denote significantly worse performance because of the
suboptimal way that

Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.

Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever
since - please correct me if I am wrong.

You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is
no reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.

I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting
great performance but then again I know enough to tune both
Drupal, PHP and PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not
saying you can't).

I'm happy with PostgreSQL and Drupal too and right now I didn't have
to get too worried about performances.

D7 should support many things that makes more sense to use Postgres.
I had to tweak D5 and D6 core to make it work with Postgres as I
needed... the problem is it takes a lot of time to see postgres
related patch get into core.
Modules that are worth to use generally have reasonable maintainer,
fixes and release are much faster.

Still I'd say that if you don't have any specific reason to use
postgresql (you have to access data on another app using postgres,
you need some special feature (full text, GIS), you've a lot of
writes to the DB...) would be a better choice if you had equal
knowledge of both.

Are there companies that offer drupal/postgres tuning?

That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests.
You can also look for things like this:

http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/

Schemas in postgres with drupal are great.

using:
http://www.webthatworks.it/d1/content/howto-duplicating-schema-postgresql
and
http://www.webthatworks.it/d1/content/excluding-some-tables-data-backup-including-their-schema
makes a breeze to duplicate sites.
And you can still conserve all triggers pk, fk, on duplicate
cascade...

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

Are there companies that offer drupal/postgres tuning?

I am quite sure that Command Prompt would be happy and fully prepared to
sell you Drupal + PostgreSQL tuning services. We also have some
projects around it, and I'm sure other consulting companies or
individuals do too. I'd predict that if you sent a message to
pgsql-jobs saying you're looking to hire someone for that sort of work,
you'd get a stack of responses from qualified people in the PostgreSQL
community.

--
Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.us

the one drupal programmer that programmed the system quit to do other things
multi-threaded issues..integration with external security..

and/or anything critical / mildly useful will send you into support h*ll

one stock form with no integration with clients database or j2ee server hosted only on apache is all you can hope for..

why not write it yourself?
Martin Gainty
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Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Which CMS/Ecommerce/Shopping cart ?
From: jd@commandprompt.com
To: sss@clearsenses.com
CC: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:45:47 -0700

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the
postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be asking in
#drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the Drupal forums.

This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge
opposition to have anything to do with PG in the whole CMS/e-store
community. In fact I even saw a request to eliminate postgresql
support in Drupal 7 (that was taken care of by the valiant efforts of
the PG community) : http://drupal.org/node/337146

Yes, I know. I was part of that. I would note that topic was 2 years ago
and has since long died.

Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal,
Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments. Again, it is
relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote
significantly worse performance because of the suboptimal way that

Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.

Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since -
please correct me if I am wrong.

You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is no
reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.

I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting great
performance but then again I know enough to tune both Drupal, PHP and
PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not saying you can't).

What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?

That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests. You can
also look for things like this:

http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/

That show the flexibility you get by using PostgreSQL.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

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On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:56:56 -0400
Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

Are there companies that offer drupal/postgres tuning?

I am quite sure that Command Prompt would be happy and fully
prepared to sell you Drupal + PostgreSQL tuning services. We also
have some projects around it, and I'm sure other consulting
companies or individuals do too. I'd predict that if you sent a
message to pgsql-jobs saying you're looking to hire someone for
that sort of work, you'd get a stack of responses from qualified
people in the PostgreSQL community.

Sure. What I haven't been able to spot are drupal companies that do
drupal tuning when it is running with postgres.

Of course here on pg ml is not hard to find companies that won't
refuse to tune postgres even if you use it for drupal ;)

BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 07:04 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

Django was originally developed for Postgres but really, they are wholly
different beasts.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

hi ,
Thanks for several of the links that you guys posted.

The issue is not that I am looking for consulting companies who will set up
and optimize postgres+software. There are a million small firms that do
M*SQL+<any CMS> work. And I am looking to do that kind of work with clients
- but I want to use the best DB out there, which I believe to be postgres.
But I find it hard to do it.

Clients do not want to engage in full custom s/w development, because they
get worried on what happens if we go out of business. I am sure many of you
out there, who have bigger clients have different experiences - but this is
the truth for most of the business that we see. And most of the existing
community or paid software out there, does not play nice with postgres.

This vicious cycle can only be broken at the level of pre-packaged web
software, which ought to work beautifully out-of-the-box with postgres.
There is just no way out of this.

What really, really hurts me is this - come Postgres 9.0 you will have the
most amazing DB software in the open source community. I (and millions of
small time developers like me) wont be able to leverage that - because our
clients will still demand <insert well known/commercially supported web
software>, which have no good support for postgres.

-Sandeep

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 22:24:07 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 07:04 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

Django was originally developed for Postgres but really, they are
wholly different beasts.

You're right. It would be nice to see benchmark of any cms developed
with Django on postgresql and mysql.
I tried to find benchmark of Plone on postgres vs mysql.

I'd tend to think (and I may be wrong) that as a rule of thumb,
being everything else equal, mysql is more suited to "commodity" cms
just because it is easier to find coupled with php in hosting (and
this reflects on communities etc...).

Still it would be nice to put the myth of mysql is better on cms,
since they are read most apps, to rest too.

But then... there are no popular [anything but php] cms but there
are a lot of [anything but php] web framework.

You start with a pre-packaged web application that looks like a
framework, then you start to do custom code, then you start to have
more impedance mismatch...
The more you've to code, the more you will prefer a framework and
postgres... but if you've coded enough it means you can afford to
code your own web application out of a framework and have your own
box (no hosting).

BTW which one of the example you posted uses ubercart?
I'd be curious about how many concurrent operation on the basket does
http://www.commandprompt.com/portal/
have...

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

On 7/28/2010 3:06 PM Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

Both xTuple web sites (www.xtuple.com and www.xtuple.org) run on Drupal/Postgres, and our xChange app store runs on ubercart.

BTW, we've also integrated Drupal with the CRM and sales functionality in xTuple - www.xtuple.com/webportal.

We've had zero issues with Postgres support in Drupal.

Cheers,
Ned

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 11:57 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

What really, really hurts me is this - come Postgres 9.0 you will have
the most amazing DB software in the open source community. I (and
millions of small time developers like me) wont be able to leverage
that - because our clients will still demand <insert well
known/commercially supported web software>, which have no good support
for postgres.

That is certainly a valid concern with Drupal. However I think you are
possibly looking at this the wrong way. If you look at Rails, Django,
Turbo Gears, Catalyst, Groovy+Grails they all have excellent PostgreSQL
support.

What I find is that many "PHP" people that build software are still very
much MySQL folks and yes that is unfortunate.

I would note that all your concerns are resolved in Drupal 7. The real
question is when they will manage to get that out the door.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 08:10 -0400, Ned Lilly wrote:

On 7/28/2010 3:06 PM Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

Both xTuple web sites (www.xtuple.com and www.xtuple.org) run on Drupal/Postgres, and our xChange app store runs on ubercart.

BTW, we've also integrated Drupal with the CRM and sales functionality in xTuple - www.xtuple.com/webportal.

We've had zero issues with Postgres support in Drupal.

The issue isn't Drupal. It is modules. There are a lot of popular
modules that do not work with PostgreSQL (Lightbox for example).

The google checkout module for Ubercart didn't work either until
relatively recently.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
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Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:52:46 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

The issue isn't Drupal. It is modules. There are a lot of popular
modules that do not work with PostgreSQL (Lightbox for example).

The google checkout module for Ubercart didn't work either until
relatively recently.

I'd say the opposite but I'll wait to test more D7.
Core takes ages to agree on what should be done to fix bugs for
Postgres without affecting even the "feelings" of MySQL developers.

Modules may have more problems but fixing them is generally trivial
and generally upstream is quick to integrate the fix.

The problem for core is maintaining your patches till and if they
fix the bug.

I agree that PHP and MySQL are a perverse match.

Still if he plans to deploy stuff as "commodity" software they are a
necessary evil.
The problem arise when you're in-between custom and RAD.
Anyway more python/django based cms are flourishing... and given
Django originally supported DB was Postgres...
http://www.django-cms.org/ [1]I think I could make a quick benchmark if possible on postgresql and mysql

Migration of Onion from Drupal/Mysql -> Django/Postgresql is
emblematic.

[1]: I think I could make a quick benchmark if possible on postgresql and mysql
and mysql

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

This touches on a question I would love to be able to answer

Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the OpenSource community? As a database I find its architecture with multiple underlying engines and other quirks to be rather dubious. Then there is the issue of commercial licenses and exactly when you must have those and what it will really cost. Yet it is pretty ubiquitous. How come? Why isn't postgresql more on developer's minds when they think of OS databases? Amazon cloud has great scalable MySQL support but apparently not postgreql. Why? Is there something about postgresql that is bugging all these people or what?

- samantha

On Jul 29, 2010, at 10:16 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

On Jul 29, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:

This touches on a question I would love to be able to answer

Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the OpenSource community? As a database I find its architecture with multiple underlying engines and other quirks to be rather dubious. Then there is the issue of commercial licenses and exactly when you must have those and what it will really cost. Yet it is pretty ubiquitous. How come? Why isn't postgresql more on developer's minds when they think of OS databases? Amazon cloud has great scalable MySQL support but apparently not postgreql. Why? Is there something about postgresql that is bugging all these people or what?

MySQL is "the PHP database".

Low rent shared hosting targets primarily people hosting PHP apps. Most PHP apps target MySQL. So hosting companies offer PHP and MySQL.

Most PHP apps are aimed to run on low end shared hosting, where the only database available is likely to be MySQL, so PHP apps target MySQL.

Another issue is that it's apparently easier to deploy multi-tenant MySQL than PostgreSQL.

And yet another is the... lets just say "sloppy development style" of most PHP coders who've learned to use MySQL, rather than SQL. That maps better onto the sloppy MySQL approach to data integrity than the PostgreSQL one. "0000-00-00" isn't a date and "" isn't an integer - unless you're a PHP coder using MySQL. These bugs in the apps, and similar ones related to MySQL's rather special approach to SQL, also make it painful to add PostgreSQL support to an existing app that was developed solely to target MySQL.

Cheers,
Steve

Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:

Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
OpenSource community?

I think it's strictly historical. The mysql bias you see in so
many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
and buggy. It took us a long time to get from the original
academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever fully
overcome that historical disadvantage.

regards, tom lane