Forums at postgresql.com.au

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

However if I had signed up to the forum (and not the mailing list) my From would have to be subscribed for the mailing list to accept it like:
Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>
John Smith <forums@postgresql.com.au>
... etc.

OK, so after a brief background I'd like to organise a solution. Without any other feasible option would this generic address system be allowed?

I wouldn't be happy with that as it prevents private replies to the
author and would make it easy to send what was intended as a private
reply to the public forums by mistake.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Excerpts from Dave Page's message of vie nov 19 11:43:34 -0300 2010:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

However if I had signed up to the forum (and not the mailing list) my From would have to be subscribed for the mailing list to accept it like:
Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>
John Smith <forums@postgresql.com.au>
... etc.

OK, so after a brief background I'd like to organise a solution. Without any other feasible option would this generic address system be allowed?

I wouldn't be happy with that as it prevents private replies to the
author and would make it easy to send what was intended as a private
reply to the public forums by mistake.

Isn't that a secondary use case, though? It would be easy to solve this
by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming
the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

I wonder if the mailing list would alow posting from an address like
forums+1357@postgresql.com.au if only forums@postgresql.com.au is
subscribed. The number or string after the + would presumably be the
user ID in the forum or some unique identifier. (Extra points if the
mailing software at that domain forwards email to the user when sent to
that address (or maybe a PM in the forum system) -- this would solve
Dave's concern.)

--
Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Excerpts from Dave Page's message of vie nov 19 11:43:34 -0300 2010:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

However if I had signed up to the forum (and not the mailing list) my >From would have to be subscribed for the mailing list to accept it like:
Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>
John Smith <forums@postgresql.com.au>
... etc.

OK, so after a brief background I'd like to organise a solution. Without any other feasible option would this generic address system be allowed?

I wouldn't be happy with that as it prevents private replies to the
author and would make it easy to send what was intended as a private
reply to the public forums by mistake.

Isn't that a secondary use case, though?  It would be easy to solve this
by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming
the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

But I don't want to use the forums - I want to carry on using the
mailing lists as I do now, without having to examine a recipients
address to figure out if its private or not, in the odd case that I
feel a private response is required.

I wonder if the mailing list would alow posting from an address like
forums+1357@postgresql.com.au if only forums@postgresql.com.au is
subscribed.  The number or string after the + would presumably be the
user ID in the forum or some unique identifier.  (Extra points if the
mailing software at that domain forwards email to the user when sent to
that address (or maybe a PM in the forum system) -- this would solve
Dave's concern.)

That would solve it, yes. I don't think mj2 will allow that though -
we've been looking for something similar for sysadmin use.

Note also that having messages come from a single user will also limit
our ability to search the archives effectively.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

2. Users are automatically created on the forum as they appear on the mailing list.

I'm not entirely happy with the idea that you're signing me up as a
user on some forum site I've never visited. You might actually have
data commissioner issues with that, though I wouldn't know what the
laws are in AU.

However if I had signed up to the forum (and not the mailing list) my From would have to be subscribed for the mailing list to accept it like:
Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>
John Smith <forums@postgresql.com.au>

This is going to do stupid things in people's contact databases too.
Either your email will be associated with all their contacts or
they'll get a single contact with all the names of all the forum users
in it. Either way is pretty bad.

--
greg

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 14:19, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

The concept and completed model works very well but with one concern. As the mailing list will only accept mail coming from a subscribed address it is not possible to use a persons forum sign up email as who the email is being sent from (the mailing list would reject this obviously.) As no one knows of an API than can be used to register a persons address without confirming that address by email the only solution is to use a subscribed generic email with the persons name;

That is not exactly what I said. I said there is no official API. I
also pointed you to example code that did almost exactly that, and
that's running in production on the postgresql.org infrastructure. The
only difference being the NOMAIL part, and I doubt that's not doable
the same way.

--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 16:14, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Excerpts from Dave Page's message of vie nov 19 11:43:34 -0300 2010:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

However if I had signed up to the forum (and not the mailing list) my >From would have to be subscribed for the mailing list to accept it like:
Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>
John Smith <forums@postgresql.com.au>
... etc.

OK, so after a brief background I'd like to organise a solution. Without any other feasible option would this generic address system be allowed?

I wouldn't be happy with that as it prevents private replies to the
author and would make it easy to send what was intended as a private
reply to the public forums by mistake.

Isn't that a secondary use case, though?  It would be easy to solve this
by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming
the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

That would pretty much make it impossible to use offline.

That would be annoying, but I guess survivable. But how would that
work for a user that hasn't signed up for the forum? How does it
verify the sender?

--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Excerpts from Dave Page's message of vie nov 19 12:22:09 -0300 2010:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

I wonder if the mailing list would alow posting from an address like
forums+1357@postgresql.com.au if only forums@postgresql.com.au is
subscribed.  The number or string after the + would presumably be the
user ID in the forum or some unique identifier.  (Extra points if the
mailing software at that domain forwards email to the user when sent to
that address (or maybe a PM in the forum system) -- this would solve
Dave's concern.)

That would solve it, yes. I don't think mj2 will allow that though -
we've been looking for something similar for sysadmin use.

So let's patch Mj2.

--
Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

On 20/11/2010, at 9:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 02:57, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 3:58 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 16:14, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Excerpts from Dave Page's message of vie nov 19 11:43:34 -0300 2010:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com>
wrote:

However if I had signed up to the forum (and not the mailing list) my From
would have to be subscribed for the mailing list to accept it like:

Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>

John Smith <forums@postgresql.com.au>

... etc.

OK, so after a brief background I'd like to organise a solution. Without any
other feasible option would this generic address system be allowed?

I wouldn't be happy with that as it prevents private replies to the

author and would make it easy to send what was intended as a private

reply to the public forums by mistake.

Isn't that a secondary use case, though? It would be easy to solve this

by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming

the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

That would pretty much make it impossible to use offline.

That would be annoying, but I guess survivable. But how would that
work for a user that hasn't signed up for the forum? How does it
verify the sender?

The forum uses the same confirmation as the mailing list where an email is
sent to the address and they have to click on a link to activate their
account - this very standard practice on forum software.

Oh, I assumed that - you're missing my point.

The point is this:
Assume John Doe posts something to the list. I am reading this, and
want to use "alvaros suggestion" for doing a direct response. So I
click the link that was in the email. *I* am not registrered in the
forums. How do I respond to his post in a safe way?

You are registered in the forum already (it does this automatically), you simply reply on the mailing list as you have always done. If you feel the sudden urge to only reply via the forum then simply use the recover password to login and reply from there.

I did have a look
at https://github.com/mhagander/hamn/blob/master/listsync.py and I an do the
submitting the part quite easily myself but how does that activate the user
without an email being sent to them?

Yeah, that's the part that needs to be added to it. But I don't see
any reason that shouldn't be fairly simple - you probably just need to
include a set nomail command as well.

Using nomail still requires you to confirm your email address (I know because i've tried it.) If there were a magic value you could pass then it would defeat the purpose of having email confirmations and people would just write scripts to cheat it - like I want to do.

When you say offline I assume you mean replying to one or more threads while
not connected to the internet, then releasing your outbox when you get back
to an internet connection?

Yes. For example, when on a plane or somewhere where the cell coverage is bad.

Like I explained this is no problem. After all you still get the same problems with a pure mailing list. For example if someone posted the question "How do I insert records?" and your on a plane typing "Use INSERT ....." but before your plane lands someone else has already responded to the person. Your email will still be sent so that the person gets two answers. Just like the persons email program will rank the answers by timestamp so will posts to the forum.

That's fine because all the posts are back dated
to sync with the email send time, so your replies will still appear after a
given post even if there has been more replies since then.

I think you're again missing that this was a comment to Alvaros
suggestion, which was the "have a link at the bottom of the email
going back to the forums".

And you're also missing the fact that I'm talking about doing a
private response to the person who posted it, not a general
to-the-list response.

Forums and mailing lists have the same functionality they just do the same things different ways. If you want to use the mailing list you have to use it like a mailing list, if you want to use the forum then you have to use it like a forum.

If John Doe signs up to the forum he is expecting the forum to work like a forum. When his answer is posted to the forum thread he will be notified. If in rare cases someone needs to send him a private message or email they can still do so through those features provided inside the forum software.

On 20/11/2010, at 4:04 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

Excerpts from Dave Page's message of vie nov 19 12:22:09 -0300 2010:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

I wonder if the mailing list would alow posting from an address like
forums+1357@postgresql.com.au if only forums@postgresql.com.au is
subscribed. The number or string after the + would presumably be the
user ID in the forum or some unique identifier. (Extra points if the
mailing software at that domain forwards email to the user when sent to
that address (or maybe a PM in the forum system) -- this would solve
Dave's concern.)

That would solve it, yes. I don't think mj2 will allow that though -
we've been looking for something similar for sysadmin use.

So let's patch Mj2.

If we use a pattern like the persons unique username:
Elliot Chance <forums-chancey@postgresql.com.au>
John Smith <forums-jsmith@postgresql.com.au>

Then I can create a catch-all so that when an email is sent to forums-chancey@postgresql.com.au it finds the user "chancey" gets the real address and sends it on. If there were a way we could register a range for mj2 like accept all emails from forums-*@posgresql.com.au then I think that solution would work well.

On 20/11/2010, at 11:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 12:26, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 9:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 02:57, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 3:58 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

Isn't that a secondary use case, though? It would be easy to solve this

by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming

the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

That would pretty much make it impossible to use offline.

That would be annoying, but I guess survivable. But how would that
work for a user that hasn't signed up for the forum? How does it
verify the sender?

The forum uses the same confirmation as the mailing list where an email is
sent to the address and they have to click on a link to activate their
account - this very standard practice on forum software.

Oh, I assumed that - you're missing my point.

The point is this:
Assume John Doe posts something to the list. I am reading this, and
want to use "alvaros suggestion" for doing a direct response. So I
click the link that was in the email. *I* am not registrered in the
forums. How do I respond to his post in a safe way?

You are registered in the forum already (it does this automatically), you simply reply on the mailing list as you have always done. If you feel the sudden urge to only reply via the forum then simply use the recover password to login and reply from there.

I can't do that, since all email is sent from the same address. How
will the forum software know which person I was trying to respond to?

One very annoying thing about Apple Mail with these lists is that when I hit reply if I don't change the To address to the mailing list or manually add the Cc then it doesn't even get sent to the mailing list. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my posts have disappeared like that.

When you reply to an email you send it to the person your replying to and Cc the mailing list. When I send to to mailing list I direct my actual To address to the mailing list, i'm not sending these replies to any particular person.

The parser script doesn't care who the email comes from or is going to because it uses the in-reply-to field to match up the threads. So this means when you hit reply your email program will say something like this:
To: Elliot Chance <forums@postgresql.com.au>
Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org

forums@postgresql.com.au is pointed to a black hole so that email disappears but the mailing list gets another copy. When the mailing list gets its copy it sends a copy to the forum (because the forum is just like a subscribed user), the parser then dissects the headers to find out where the post belongs. We already know this part works.

I did have a look
at https://github.com/mhagander/hamn/blob/master/listsync.py and I an do the
submitting the part quite easily myself but how does that activate the user
without an email being sent to them?

Yeah, that's the part that needs to be added to it. But I don't see
any reason that shouldn't be fairly simple - you probably just need to
include a set nomail command as well.

Using nomail still requires you to confirm your email address (I know because i've tried it.) If there were a magic value you could pass then it would defeat the purpose of having email confirmations and people would just write scripts to cheat it - like I want to do.

Uh, no. Not when you're accessing the interface with the proper
password (one that has permissions to do admin actions on the list).
The code in that example does not require confirmation for the
subscriptions. It does, I think, send out the "welcome to the xyz
list" mail, but that should also be easily scriptable away.

Theres no way I'm relying on the fact that every person that signs up to the forums will be informed enough to realise that the forum is more-or-less just a front for the mailing list. If I signed up to a forum and got and email saying "welcome to the mailing list" I would think "Um, I didn't sign up to this" and unsubscribe. Now all my posts will be rejected by the mailing list and my posts will goto thin air without me ever knowing.

When you say offline I assume you mean replying to one or more threads while
not connected to the internet, then releasing your outbox when you get back
to an internet connection?

Yes. For example, when on a plane or somewhere where the cell coverage is bad.

Like I explained this is no problem. After all you still get the same problems with a pure mailing list. For example if someone posted the question "How do I insert records?" and your on a plane typing "Use INSERT ....." but before your plane lands someone else has already responded to the person. Your email will still be sent so that the person gets two answers. Just like the persons email program will rank the answers by timestamp so will posts to the forum.

You are still not understanding the problem. Since I *don't have the
users email address*, I can't send it the normal way. I have nowhere
to send it.

Explained above, your not sending it to the person your sending it back to the mailing list. I know this works because I've been testing it with my own address like a dummy mailing list.

That's fine because all the posts are back dated
to sync with the email send time, so your replies will still appear after a
given post even if there has been more replies since then.

I think you're again missing that this was a comment to Alvaros
suggestion, which was the "have a link at the bottom of the email
going back to the forums".

And you're also missing the fact that I'm talking about doing a
private response to the person who posted it, not a general
to-the-list response.

Forums and mailing lists have the same functionality they just do the same things different ways. If you want to use the mailing list you have to use it like a mailing list, if you want to use the forum then you have to use it like a forum.

If John Doe signs up to the forum he is expecting the forum to work like a forum. When his answer is posted to the forum thread he will be notified. If in rare cases someone needs to send him a private message or email they can still do so through those features provided inside the forum software.

So again, you're either not understanding the problem, or deliberately
avoiding it.

John Doe posts something to the forum.
This gets mirrored to the mailinglist. From address is forum@postgresql.com.au
I read this
I want to respond to John Doe.

If you want to respond you use the Reply button.

There is no way for me to reach John Doe at this point. I can reach
the mailinglist. But I don't want to reach the mailinglist, I want to
reach John Done.

If you want to personally reach John Doe you can use either the PM or email system in the forum - and you know how to reach him by his name. And perhaps a URL at the bottom of the email. If you just want to reply to him then i've explain that above.

How do I access the forums private message feature, since I'm not
registered in the forum software?

Again, you are registered, you have a password but you'l have to recover it the first time to be able to login to the forum to send PMs/emails etc.

Begin forwarded message:

On Nov 20, 2010, at 8:22 , Elliot Chance wrote:

One very annoying thing about Apple Mail with these lists is that when I hit reply if I don't change the To address to the mailing list or manually add the Cc then it doesn't even get sent to the mailing list.

Use Reply to All: Cmd-Shift-R.

Michael Glaesemann
grzm seespotcode net

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 14:22, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 11:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 12:26, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 9:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 02:57, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 3:58 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

Isn't that a secondary use case, though?  It would be easy to solve this

by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming

the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

That would pretty much make it impossible to use offline.

That would be annoying, but I guess survivable. But how would that
work for a user that hasn't signed up for the forum? How does it
verify the sender?

The forum uses the same confirmation as the mailing list where an email is
sent to the address and they have to click on a link to activate their
account - this very standard practice on forum software.

Oh, I assumed that - you're missing my point.

The point is this:
Assume John Doe posts something to the list. I am reading this, and
want to use "alvaros suggestion" for doing a direct response. So I
click the link that was in the email. *I* am not registrered in the
forums. How do I respond to his post in a safe way?

You are registered in the forum already (it does this automatically), you simply reply on the mailing list as you have always done. If you feel the sudden urge to only reply via the forum then simply use the recover password to login and reply from there.

I can't do that, since all email is sent from the same address. How
will the forum software know which person I was trying to respond to?

One very annoying thing about Apple Mail with these lists is that when I hit reply if I don't change the To address to the mailing list or manually add the Cc then it doesn't even get sent to the mailing list. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my posts have disappeared like that.

Use "Reply To All" when you want to send to the list. It's what
everybody else has been doing for ages :-) If you want to read up on
the bike-shedding that goes behind that preference, it is something
that comes up regularly - just search the archives.

forums@postgresql.com.au is pointed to a black hole so that email disappears but the mailing list gets another copy. When the mailing list gets its copy it sends a copy to the forum (because the forum is just like a subscribed user), the parser then dissects the headers to find out where the post belongs. We already know this part works.

So how does one respond to the user?

Using nomail still requires you to confirm your email address (I know because i've tried it.) If there were a magic value you could pass then it would defeat the purpose of having email confirmations and people would just write scripts to cheat it - like I want to do.

Uh, no. Not when you're accessing the interface with the proper
password (one that has permissions to do admin actions on the list).
The code in that example does not require confirmation for the
subscriptions. It does, I think, send out the "welcome to the xyz
list" mail, but that should also be easily scriptable away.

Theres no way I'm relying on the fact that every person that signs up to the forums will be informed enough to realise that the forum is more-or-less just a front for the mailing list. If I signed up to a forum and got and email saying "welcome to the mailing list" I would think "Um, I didn't sign up to this" and unsubscribe. Now all my posts will be rejected by the mailing list and my posts will goto thin air without me ever knowing.

Like I said, "that should also be easily scriptable away". Yes, it
will take more than zero seconds of work to look into how to do it.

You are still not understanding the problem. Since I *don't have the
users email address*, I can't send it the normal way. I have nowhere
to send it.

Explained above, your not sending it to the person your sending it back to the mailing list. I know this works because I've been testing it with my own address like a dummy mailing list.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.. I don't *WANT* to send
it to the list, in this scenario. I want to send it to the *person*.

Forums and mailing lists have the same functionality they just do the same things different ways. If you want to use the mailing list you have to use it like a mailing list, if you want to use the forum then you have to use it like a forum.

If John Doe signs up to the forum he is expecting the forum to work like a forum. When his answer is posted to the forum thread he will be notified. If in rare cases someone needs to send him a private message or email they can still do so through those features provided inside the forum software.

So again, you're either not understanding the problem, or deliberately
avoiding it.

John Doe posts something to the forum.
This gets mirrored to the mailinglist. From address is forum@postgresql.com.au
I read this
I want to respond to John Doe.

If you want to respond you use the Reply button.

But that email goes to forum@postgresql.com.au. Which you said above
is a black hole. How do I get it to John?

There is no way for me to reach John Doe at this point. I can reach
the mailinglist. But I don't want to reach the mailinglist, I want to
reach John Done.

If you want to personally reach John Doe you can use either the PM or email system in the forum - and you know how to reach him by his name. And perhaps a URL at the bottom of the email. If you just want to reply to him then i've explain that above.

But I'm not *on* the forum, I'm using the mailinglist.

The URL at the bottom is an acceptable solution, if you can make it
work transparently. I just don't understand how you can do that -
since I haven't signed up, I don't have a password.And you can't
encode it in the URL, because it goes into public archives... So how
would that URL *work*?

How do I access the forums private message feature, since I'm not
registered in the forum software?

Again, you are registered, you have a password but you'l have to recover it the first time to be able to login to the forum to send PMs/emails etc.

So basically, I can't respond to posts made from the forum then,
because having to go through such a cycle is certainly broken enough
that I would never use it.

Based on that, I'm back to saying that the email has to be generated
from a valid email address, that can be used for return traffic.
Whether it's the users original address or a forum-specific one is a
different question, but a blackhole catch-all one just won't do.

--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Using the reply to all, thanks.

On 21/11/2010, at 12:32 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 14:22, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 11:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 12:26, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 9:52 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 02:57, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20/11/2010, at 3:58 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

Isn't that a secondary use case, though? It would be easy to solve this

by providing a URL to the post in the forum that you can click; assuming

the forum interface gives you the option to reply privately.

That would pretty much make it impossible to use offline.

That would be annoying, but I guess survivable. But how would that
work for a user that hasn't signed up for the forum? How does it
verify the sender?

The forum uses the same confirmation as the mailing list where an email is
sent to the address and they have to click on a link to activate their
account - this very standard practice on forum software.

Oh, I assumed that - you're missing my point.

The point is this:
Assume John Doe posts something to the list. I am reading this, and
want to use "alvaros suggestion" for doing a direct response. So I
click the link that was in the email. *I* am not registrered in the
forums. How do I respond to his post in a safe way?

You are registered in the forum already (it does this automatically), you simply reply on the mailing list as you have always done. If you feel the sudden urge to only reply via the forum then simply use the recover password to login and reply from there.

I can't do that, since all email is sent from the same address. How
will the forum software know which person I was trying to respond to?

One very annoying thing about Apple Mail with these lists is that when I hit reply if I don't change the To address to the mailing list or manually add the Cc then it doesn't even get sent to the mailing list. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my posts have disappeared like that.

Use "Reply To All" when you want to send to the list. It's what
everybody else has been doing for ages :-) If you want to read up on
the bike-shedding that goes behind that preference, it is something
that comes up regularly - just search the archives.

forums@postgresql.com.au is pointed to a black hole so that email disappears but the mailing list gets another copy. When the mailing list gets its copy it sends a copy to the forum (because the forum is just like a subscribed user), the parser then dissects the headers to find out where the post belongs. We already know this part works.

So how does one respond to the user?

I can't explain it any clearer, your email response goes to the mailing list and that mailing list sends a copy to the original person thats how a mailing list works. It also sends a copy to the forum which is parses you and that person and anyone else can see the reply on the forum.

Using nomail still requires you to confirm your email address (I know because i've tried it.) If there were a magic value you could pass then it would defeat the purpose of having email confirmations and people would just write scripts to cheat it - like I want to do.

Uh, no. Not when you're accessing the interface with the proper
password (one that has permissions to do admin actions on the list).
The code in that example does not require confirmation for the
subscriptions. It does, I think, send out the "welcome to the xyz
list" mail, but that should also be easily scriptable away.

Theres no way I'm relying on the fact that every person that signs up to the forums will be informed enough to realise that the forum is more-or-less just a front for the mailing list. If I signed up to a forum and got and email saying "welcome to the mailing list" I would think "Um, I didn't sign up to this" and unsubscribe. Now all my posts will be rejected by the mailing list and my posts will goto thin air without me ever knowing.

Like I said, "that should also be easily scriptable away". Yes, it
will take more than zero seconds of work to look into how to do it.

As theres no way or checking the subscription status of an address I would have to subscribe them every post. And i'm sure they would get really annoyed when every they unsubscribe from the mailing list and make a post on the forum they keep getting "welcome to the mailing list" emails.

You are still not understanding the problem. Since I *don't have the
users email address*, I can't send it the normal way. I have nowhere
to send it.

Explained above, your not sending it to the person your sending it back to the mailing list. I know this works because I've been testing it with my own address like a dummy mailing list.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.. I don't *WANT* to send
it to the list, in this scenario. I want to send it to the *person*.

Theres only two possible scenarios;
1. The person is signed up to the mailing list, in which case they will get your reply when its passed through the mailing list like they should.
2. The person signed up to the forum and not the mailing list, in which case they will get an email from the forum saying "JohnDoe has replied to your post..."

Either way they will get your response.

Forums and mailing lists have the same functionality they just do the same things different ways. If you want to use the mailing list you have to use it like a mailing list, if you want to use the forum then you have to use it like a forum.

If John Doe signs up to the forum he is expecting the forum to work like a forum. When his answer is posted to the forum thread he will be notified. If in rare cases someone needs to send him a private message or email they can still do so through those features provided inside the forum software.

So again, you're either not understanding the problem, or deliberately
avoiding it.

John Doe posts something to the forum.
This gets mirrored to the mailinglist. From address is forum@postgresql.com.au
I read this
I want to respond to John Doe.

If you want to respond you use the Reply button.

But that email goes to forum@postgresql.com.au. Which you said above
is a black hole. How do I get it to John?

There is no way for me to reach John Doe at this point. I can reach
the mailinglist. But I don't want to reach the mailinglist, I want to
reach John Done.

If you want to personally reach John Doe you can use either the PM or email system in the forum - and you know how to reach him by his name. And perhaps a URL at the bottom of the email. If you just want to reply to him then i've explain that above.

But I'm not *on* the forum, I'm using the mailinglist.

The URL at the bottom is an acceptable solution, if you can make it
work transparently. I just don't understand how you can do that -
since I haven't signed up, I don't have a password.And you can't
encode it in the URL, because it goes into public archives... So how
would that URL *work*?

This is your forum account http://forums.postgresql.com.au/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=101

Anyone that posts to the mailing list becomes a member of the forum so that their emails can be used as posts otherwise there would be one giant MailingList user that has 99%+ of the forum posts which is a terrible idea.

How do I access the forums private message feature, since I'm not
registered in the forum software?

Again, you are registered, you have a password but you'l have to recover it the first time to be able to login to the forum to send PMs/emails etc.

So basically, I can't respond to posts made from the forum then,
because having to go through such a cycle is certainly broken enough
that I would never use it.

Based on that, I'm back to saying that the email has to be generated
from a valid email address, that can be used for return traffic.
Whether it's the users original address or a forum-specific one is a
different question, but a blackhole catch-all one just won't do.

Nothings changed if you wish to continue using the mailing lists.

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 14:46, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

forums@postgresql.com.au is pointed to a black hole so that email disappears but the mailing list gets another copy. When the mailing list gets its copy it sends a copy to the forum (because the forum is just like a subscribed user), the parser then dissects the headers to find out where the post belongs. We already know this part works.

So how does one respond to the user?

I can't explain it any clearer, your email response goes to the mailing list and that mailing list sends a copy to the original person thats how a mailing list works. It also sends a copy to the forum which is parses you and that person and anyone else can see the reply on the forum.

Clearly you're not understanding my point. I don't *want* it to go to
the list. I want to write a private email to the user who made a post
from the forum, without having to set up and use a forum account. Just
a simple response, just the way I can do now.

But I'll leave it to somebody else to attempt to explain that, since I
clearly am unable to get it across.

Uh, no. Not when you're accessing the interface with the proper
password (one that has permissions to do admin actions on the list).
The code in that example does not require confirmation for the
subscriptions. It does, I think, send out the "welcome to the xyz
list" mail, but that should also be easily scriptable away.

Theres no way I'm relying on the fact that every person that signs up to the forums will be informed enough to realise that the forum is more-or-less just a front for the mailing list. If I signed up to a forum and got and email saying "welcome to the mailing list" I would think "Um, I didn't sign up to this" and unsubscribe. Now all my posts will be rejected by the mailing list and my posts will goto thin air without me ever knowing.

Like I said, "that should also be easily scriptable away". Yes, it
will take more than zero seconds of work to look into how to do it.

As theres no way or checking the subscription status of an address I would have to subscribe them every post. And i'm sure they would get really annoyed when every they unsubscribe from the mailing list and make a post on the forum they keep getting "welcome to the mailing list" emails.

Sure there is. If you looked at the script I sent, you would notice it
does just that - checks if a user is already subscribed, and
subscribes him/her if not on there only.

And you're still stuck on the "keep getting the welcome mail", even
though I've told you several times that I'm certain you can make it
work without having it send that out.

Again, I give up. It can be done, but clearly I can't explain it in a
way that you can understand. Hopefully somebody else can understand
what I'm saying and explain it further.

You are still not understanding the problem. Since I *don't have the
users email address*, I can't send it the normal way. I have nowhere
to send it.

Explained above, your not sending it to the person your sending it back to the mailing list. I know this works because I've been testing it with my own address like a dummy mailing list.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.. I don't *WANT* to send
it to the list, in this scenario. I want to send it to the *person*.

Theres only two possible scenarios;
1. The person is signed up to the mailing list, in which case they will get your reply when its passed through the mailing list like they should.

Seriously? Please read what I wrote. Or at least try.

I am NOT SENDING IT TO THE LIST.

I am sending it DIRECTLY TO THE PERSON.

Or rather, I'm trying, but it goes to forum@, which is a blackhole
that throws it away.

That shall, again, be my last attempt. But solving the problem is a
*requirement*, so hopefully someone can explain it better.

If you want to personally reach John Doe you can use either the PM or email system in the forum - and you know how to reach him by his name. And perhaps a URL at the bottom of the email. If you just want to reply to him then i've explain that above.

But I'm not *on* the forum, I'm using the mailinglist.

The URL at the bottom is an acceptable solution, if you can make it
work transparently. I just don't understand how you can do that -
since I haven't signed up, I don't have a password.And you can't
encode it in the URL, because it goes into public archives... So how
would that URL *work*?

This is your forum account http://forums.postgresql.com.au/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=101

Anyone that posts to the mailing list becomes a member of the forum so that their emails can be used as posts otherwise there would be one giant MailingList user that has 99%+ of the forum posts which is a terrible idea.

I can't use it, because I don't have my password. And I need to be
able to contact people via email, since *my* interface is email.

(And yes, single account is a terrible idea, I totally agree with that)

How do I access the forums private message feature, since I'm not
registered in the forum software?

Again, you are registered, you have a password but you'l have to recover it the first time to be able to login to the forum to send PMs/emails etc.

So basically, I can't respond to posts made from the forum then,
because having to go through such a cycle is certainly broken enough
that I would never use it.

Based on that, I'm back to saying that the email has to be generated
from a valid email address, that can be used for return traffic.
Whether it's the users original address or a forum-specific one is a
different question, but a blackhole catch-all one just won't do.

Nothings changed if you wish to continue using the mailing lists.

Except I can no longer respond to people in private, which is a
feature I (and many others) use extensively.

Anyway, I've tried and repeatedly failed to explain what the
requirements that I put up there are. I know others have understood
them (from offlist conversations), so I leave it to somebody else to
take over if this is going to ever get to completion, since we seem to
just be talking past each other.

--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> writes:

Then I can create a catch-all so that when an email is sent to forums-chancey@postgresql.com.au it finds the user "chancey" gets the real address and sends it on. If there were a way we could register a range for mj2 like accept all emails from forums-*@posgresql.com.au then I think that solution would work well.

So any spammer that knows that can blast the lists at will?

regards, tom lane

Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 14:46, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

forums@postgresql.com.au is pointed to a black hole so that email disappears but the mailing list gets another copy. When the mailing list gets its copy it sends a copy to the forum (because the forum is just like a subscribed user), the parser then dissects the headers to find out where the post belongs. We already know this part works.

So how does one respond to the user?

I can't explain it any clearer, your email response goes to the mailing list and that mailing list sends a copy to the original person thats how a mailing list works. It also sends a copy to the forum which is parses you and that person and anyone else can see the reply on the forum.

Clearly you're not understanding my point. I don't *want* it to go to
the list. I want to write a private email to the user who made a post
from the forum, without having to set up and use a forum account. Just
a simple response, just the way I can do now.

But I'll leave it to somebody else to attempt to explain that, since I
clearly am unable to get it across.

I would argue that if the person wants to use a forum, aren't they
saying they don't want to be contacted via email. I think we just throw
it only to the forum (that is the user) and leave it that. Forum users
don't get the _rich_ email experience. ;-)

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ It's impossible for everything to be true. +

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 05:46, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

On 21/11/2010, at 12:32 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 14:22, Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> wrote:

Use "Reply To All" when you want to send to the list. It's what
everybody else has been doing for ages :-) If you want to read up on
the bike-shedding that goes behind that preference, it is something
that comes up regularly - just search the archives.

forums@postgresql.com.au is pointed to a black hole so that email disappears but the mailing list gets another copy. When the mailing list gets its copy it sends a copy to the forum (because the forum is just like a subscribed user), the parser then dissects the headers to find out where the post belongs. We already know this part works.

So how does one respond to the user?

I can't explain it any clearer, your email response goes to the mailing list and that mailing list sends a copy to the original person thats how a mailing list works. It also sends a copy to the forum which is parses you and that person and anyone else can see the reply on the forum.

Elliot, Magnus wants forum->list email to come from a per-user address
so that when he replies directly to that address (without sending it
to the list), the response is mapped to a PM.

Magnus, I see a couple issues with that:
1 - Conventionally, private messages are not used quite that often in
forums. They are truly separate from public discussion, not a natural
part of it by virtue of being the same ultimate message destination.
2 - Since Reply to All is a convention on this list, the forum needs
to deal with that somehow. Both a private and public response
containing the same content is unacceptable for forums. The public
response is always preferred and can't be integrated later, such as in
the common "solution" of having the list software not send a copy when
it detects a person's address already in the address list.

On 21/11/2010, at 2:41 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com> writes:

Then I can create a catch-all so that when an email is sent to forums-chancey@postgresql.com.au it finds the user "chancey" gets the real address and sends it on. If there were a way we could register a range for mj2 like accept all emails from forums-*@posgresql.com.au then I think that solution would work well.

So any spammer that knows that can blast the lists at will?

regards, tom lane

No, because their spam email would have to go through the mailing list before it reaches the forum and the mailing list would simply reject it if they were not subscribed.

They can't send emails to the forum directly because there is are secret email addresses that are never given out or shown.