Looking for Suggestion on Learning

On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote:

I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too
complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details.

I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open
source design tool to a simple method to implement the design.

I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will
appreciate any help.

ray

It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had with
Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base
(http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well
integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools,
admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect handled
by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text files run
through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is psycopg2. This in turn
gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use Dabo (http://dabodev.com/).
Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a 1-2-3
tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work back from
there:

1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on?
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with?
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web?
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps?

With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a bit.
Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations. Good news, Open
Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open Source is about a variety
of choices.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@gmail.com

On 02/05/11 9:30 AM, ray wrote:

I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
how to use pgsql. I have found some ......

Access really isn't a database, its an application development system
that happens to use databases, by default the Jet engine. Postgres
would replace Jet, but not Access itself, you'd need some other sort of
software for creating forms & reports and such.

Do note, you can use Postgres databases with Access, via Postgres ODBC
or ADODB connectors.

On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote:

I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too
complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details.

I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open
source design tool to a simple method to implement the design.

I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will
appreciate any help.

ray

It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had
with
Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base
(http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well
integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools,
admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect
handled by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text
files run through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is
psycopg2. This n turn gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use
Dabo > (http://dabodev.com/).
Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a
1-2-3 tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work
bck from there:

1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on?
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with?
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web?
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps?

With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a
bit. Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations.
Good news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open
Source is about a variety of choices.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@gmail.com

Adrian,

Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding
questions you presented:

1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP.
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python.
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first.
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO at
first.

My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I
will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be
a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big apps,
I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the simple.

Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle admin/creation
with text files run through psql."

I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is
there a tool for designing a database?

Ray

On Saturday 05 February 2011 18:42:09 John R Pierce wrote:

On 02/05/11 9:30 AM, ray wrote:

I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
how to use pgsql. I have found some ......

Access really isn't a database, its an application development system
that happens to use databases, by default the Jet engine. Postgres
would replace Jet, but not Access itself, you'd need some other sort of
software for creating forms & reports and such.

Do note, you can use Postgres databases with Access, via Postgres ODBC
or ADODB connectors.

Is there an open source product that runs on Linux that does what Access does?

Thanks

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

On Saturday, February 05, 2011 6:22:47 pm ray joseph wrote:

Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding
questions you presented:

1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP.
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python.
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first.
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO
at first.

My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I
will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be
a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big
apps, I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the
simple.

Since you are working with Python, another suggestion:
http://sqlkit.argolinux.org/sqlkit/tour.html#

This has only recently shown up and I myself am only at the reading the docs
stage, but it looks interesting.

Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle
admin/creation with text files run through psql."

psql is the command line Postgres client. I create my database
objects(tables,views,functions) as separate text files in a text editor(Jedit in
my case). I can then use psql to read the files and create/drop objects. I can
also work inside psql to do database chores. Another option that I failed to
mention earlier is pgAdmin3 (http://www.pgadmin.org/). It is a GUI admin tool
for Postgres. If you are using the Windows installer it is included.

I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is
there a tool for designing a database?

Pen and paper:) No really that is how I usually start out, sketching out the
design on a legal pad. This gets turned into the text files I mentioned above. I
have no real experience with using GUI tools for this so I can offer no
suggestions. There have been discussions on this topic on the mailing list, so
if you search the mailing list archive you will find suggestions.

Ray

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@gmail.com

Matt,

Thank you for your insightful view. I do not have a design for any of my
design opportunities. This is one reason I was looking for a design tool.
I have many work processes that are inter related, generated by different
groups that must transcribe data from each others artifacts. I do have
Visio but I have never used it for this purpose. Since one of my objectives
is to learn about db design, maybe I can find some training material using
Visio. I wonder if Visio will generate SQL. If I recall, only the
enterprise version of Visio produces SQL, so I would like to find a FOS tool
for this. A tool and associated tutorial would be great.

BTW, I do use Notepad++. I have used gnome.org/dia, but I find it much
weaker than Visio. I did not realize that PHP admin required a web server,
but I have recently installed Apache for SVN. I looked at PHP admin even
though my preference is Python. I have also looked at Maestro but have had
a similar problem with tutorials.

Thank you for the link to the 'docs' site. I have been there many times
over the past couple of years but now I see it in a new light (I'm slow).

When you hand code SQL with Notepad++, how do you launch the code?

I really appreciate your efforts.

ray

_____

From: urlugal@gmail.com [mailto:urlugal@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 10:19 PM
To: ray joseph
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Looking for Suggestion on Learning

I too am in a similar situation. My company currently uses M$ Access and
the solution is no longer viable and needs to be dealt with. Form what I
have been reading and learning the last few weeks trying to compare Access
and PG is like comparing a go-kart and a race car. They both do the same
thing more or less but the race car is capable of much more but also needs
more attention. I am assuming that you already have a structural design for
your database, tables, keys etc. If not this is a good place to start and
is where I am currently at in my project.

On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 9:22 PM, ray joseph <ray@aarden.us> wrote:

On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote:

I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too
complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details.

Use the online documentation at http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ for a basic
tutorial on how to create tables, queries, and the like. The docs go much
further in detail then that but this is a good place to start. It gives
real examples of working with tables that are easy to follow and it doesn't
require previous knowledge.

I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open
source design tool to a simple method to implement the design.

What do you mean by a design tool? Are you looking for a program to help
you map out the table structure of your db? Are you looking for a GUI to
access your db and modify it? I am using Viso to create my maps at work
right now but you may want to check out Dia http://projects.gnome.org/dia/,
it is a good piece of software but I haven't used it for this purpose yet.
When you install PG it comes with the GUI PGAdmin that gives you basic
control over some aspects of your db and allows you to implement various
things. I am using PHPAdmin myself, as this project is entirely based on
the net and I also have a fondness for php. This can be acquired through
the stackbuilder app included with the single file installer for PG. It
does require you to run a webserver though, so this may not be the route you
wish to take. As far as building the db itself I hand code the SQL in
notepad++ http://notepad-plus-plus.org/. I am not a big fan of IDE's for
small scale or single file projects so this editor is great. It provides a
tabbed interface and has syntax highlighting for many of the most common
languages and is fairly lightweight.

I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will
appreciate any help.

Being more specific as to what you are looking to learn may help people to
suggest the right guide for you. I have had great luck here in the last few
weeks with recommended books and articles.

ray

It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had
with
Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base
(http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well
integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools,
admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect
handled by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text
files run through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is

psycopg2. This n turn gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use

Dabo > (http://dabodev.com/).
Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a
1-2-3 tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work
bck from there:

1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on?
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with?
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web?
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps?

With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a
bit. Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations.
Good news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open
Source is about a variety of choices.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@gmail.com

Adrian,

Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding
questions you presented:

1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP.
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python.
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first.
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO at
first.

My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I
will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be
a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big apps,
I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the simple.

Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle admin/creation

with text files run through psql."

This is the commandline shell that allows you to interact with the database.
It is from here that you are able to create tables, views, and submit
queries, among other things. It is akin to the Windows command prompt,
although instead of giving commands to windows you are giving them to PG.

I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is
there a tool for designing a database?

Please be specific, do you mean creating a logical design of the structure
or do you mean implementing the design such as creating tables and inserting
data.

Ray

--
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To make changes to your subscription:
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On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:14 AM, ray joseph <ray@aarden.us> wrote:

Matt,

Thank you for your insightful view. I do not have a design for any of my
design opportunities. This is one reason I was looking for a design tool.
I have many work processes that are inter related, generated by different
groups that must transcribe data from each others artifacts. I do have
Visio but I have never used it for this purpose. Since one of my objectives
is to learn about db design, maybe I can find some training material using
Visio. I wonder if Visio will generate SQL. If I recall, only the
enterprise version of Visio produces SQL, so I would like to find a FOS tool
for this. A tool and associated tutorial would be great.

As was mentioned earlier and pencil and paper is a great tool to start with.
The first several drafts of my database were done with graph paper and a
pencil. I find it much quicker in the beginning to do it this way then use
a computer and make changes to it through a program. When you get a design
almost nearly complete then I would recomend a computer program. If you go
the route of Viso there are templates for databases built in so this may
save you some time. As far as code generation goes I have no idea as I
prefer to do all my generation by hand.

BTW, I do use Notepad++. I have used gnome.org/dia, but I find it much
weaker than Visio. I did not realize that PHP admin required a web server,
but I have recently installed Apache for SVN. I looked at PHP admin even
though my preference is Python. I have also looked at Maestro but have had
a similar problem with tutorials.

PHP is a server side language and thus is usually not run from the
commandline like ruby or python, it is generally run through a web server
such as apache or IIS.

Thank you for the link to the ‘docs’ site. I have been there many times
over the past couple of years but now I see it in a new light (I’m slow).

When you hand code SQL with Notepad++, how do you launch the code?

There are several ways to launch the code. I use the PHPPGAdmin and load
the file into the GUI and launch it that way. I haven't really gotten that
far into my development yet where I need to do this on a large scale, for
now that method works for me. I am sure there are other ways to do it
through the PG commandline interface.

Le dimanche 06 fￜvrier 2011 ￜ 12:27 -0500, Matt a ￜcrit :

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:14 AM, ray joseph <ray@aarden.us> wrote:
Matt,

When you hand code SQL with Notepad++, how do you launch the
code?

There are several ways to launch the code. I use the PHPPGAdmin and
load the file into the GUI and launch it that way.

In psql, you type :

\i path/to/file/with/sql

and it will play your code.

There was a recent thread with a question similar to yours, have a look
at it :

http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/Basic-Tutorials-for-9-0-td3259760.html

--
Vincent Veyron
http://marica.fr/
Logiciel de gestion des dossiers de contentieux et d'assurance pour le service juridique