Open Sourcing pgManage

Joshua D. Drake writes:

I thought that we might donate it to the project as a whole. What are
people's thoughts on
this?

I think the decision has been made that no new client applications will be
included with PostgreSQL. We will provide a server and let a happy bunch
of client applications and libraries develop around it. That has worked
out pretty well lately, I think.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Master-of-the-Makefiles http://www.postgresql.org

Hello,

If that is the case that is fine. I just wanted to throw it out there
but doesn't that mean that
psql would be separate as well?

J

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Joshua D. Drake writes:

I thought that we might donate it to the project as a whole. What are
people's thoughts on
this?

I think the decision has been made that no new client applications will be
included with PostgreSQL. We will provide a server and let a happy bunch
of client applications and libraries develop around it. That has worked
out pretty well lately, I think.

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 

On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 14:14, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

As Command Prompt is about to release it's Replication product we are
open sourcing our
pgManage. pgManage is similar to pgAdmin but as it is java based it is
truly cross platform
and should easily support most if not all of the community supported
platforms.

I thought that we might donate it to the project as a whole. What are
people's thoughts on
this?

Any client distributed with PostgreSQL should work on all of the
platforms PostgreSQL does. Java can make this a bit of a stickler since
Sun does not support it outside the mainstream systems.

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

If that is the case that is fine. I just wanted to throw it out there
but doesn't that mean that
psql would be separate as well?

"no new client applications"

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

If that is the case that is fine. I just wanted to throw it out there
but doesn't that mean that
psql would be separate as well?

"no new client applications"

BTW, Joshua, thanks for releasing this - all my client side work is
currently Java (a Tomcat webapp in fact) so I'm very interested to see
the shape of your app, as I'm sure others are.

cheers

andrew

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

If that is the case that is fine. I just wanted to throw it out there
but doesn't that mean that
psql would be separate as well?

"no new client applications"

BTW, Joshua, thanks for releasing this - all my client side work is
currently Java (a Tomcat webapp in fact) so I'm very interested to see
the shape of your app, as I'm sure others are.

D'oh, just clued into the 'java' aspect ... Joshua, will this run as a
JSP, remotely, through Jakarta-Tomcat? One of the limitations of pgAdmin,
as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that you can run it remotely ... if
you could run pgManage under something like Jakarta-Tomcat as a JSP, that
would be *really* cool ...

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:

Joshua D. Drake writes:

I thought that we might donate it to the project as a whole. What are
people's thoughts on
this?

I think the decision has been made that no new client applications will be
included with PostgreSQL.

"Donation" doesn't equal "include in the server distribution". I think it
would be great to put it up on gborg.

regards, tom lane

Joshua,

I'd love to see it donated to the community as well!

Dave

If it doesn't do jsp now, it would be a good starting point for a web
version, as java lends it self well to multiple views.

Dave

D'oh, just clued into the 'java' aspect ... Joshua, will this run as a
JSP, remotely, through Jakarta-Tomcat? One of the limitations of pgAdmin,
as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that you can run it remotely ... if
you could run pgManage under something like Jakarta-Tomcat as a JSP, that
would be *really* cool ...

Hello,

Well right now you can't but there is no reason why it couldn't as an
applet with some work.

J

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-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 

Josh,

Yes it has a Java requirement but hey.... that is a lot easier than a
GTK requirement to fullfill.
My thought is that it could be included as pgAccess used to be.

As we discussed, PostgreSQL is blessed with three ... now 4 ... good GUI
interfaces. We don't have the justification to include one of these GUIs
with the source and not the others.

I do think that we should consider offering the GUIs alongside the source on
the FTP mirrors. Or at least having a big link on the downloads page and the
users page to the GUI list.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

JSP, remotely, through Jakarta-Tomcat? One of the limitations of pgAdmin,
as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that you can run it remotely ... if
you could run pgManage under something like Jakarta-Tomcat as a JSP, that
would be *really* cool ...

D'oh, just clued into the 'java' aspect ... Joshua, will this run as a

pgAdmin is designed for a good interactive experience, which isn't
achievable using web technologies. SSL connection is supported, so on
not-too-slow lines remote usage should be possible without security
issues, or over a VPN (I'm working like this).
For web access, phpPGadmin should be usable; haven't tried so far.

Regards,
Andreas

Andreas Pflug wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

JSP, remotely, through Jakarta-Tomcat? One of the limitations of
pgAdmin,
as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that you can run it remotely ... if
you could run pgManage under something like Jakarta-Tomcat as a JSP,
that
would be *really* cool ...

D'oh, just clued into the 'java' aspect ... Joshua, will this run as a

pgAdmin is designed for a good interactive experience, which isn't
achievable using web technologies. SSL connection is supported, so on
not-too-slow lines remote usage should be possible without security
issues, or over a VPN (I'm working like this).
For web access, phpPGadmin should be usable; haven't tried so far.

I don't think any of this contradicts what Marc said.

And, as Joshua pointed out it could with some work be made to run as an
applet, which would be very cool for, say, an ISP to provide (nothing at
all required for the user to install).

Don't get me wrong - pgadmin is cool - I especially recommend it to my
Windows oriented clients and colleagues who hate using command lines.

I think there is room for lots of GUIs, though, and having a Java admin
GUI would be cool too, as would having a servlet/JSP based admin client
deployable as a web archive.

(BTW, have a look at the phpPgAdmin screen shots at
http://phppgadmin.sourceforge.net/?page=screenshots - they are quite
nice, even though I am not a PHP fan).

cheers

andrew

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

I think there is room for lots of GUIs, though, and having a Java admin GUI
would be cool too, as would having a servlet/JSP based admin client deployable
as a web archive.

If someone's looking for an interesting GUI project, Applix had a database
frontend that was geared more for data rather than DDL. It presented a
spreadsheet-like interface for arbitrary sql queries and handled dealing with
arbitrary sized result sets and allowing editing of fields using primary keys
etc.

It was actually part of their open source release. I looked at trying to pull
it out of their build system and package it up independently a while back. It
was a bit of a pain. But I did manage to get it compiled and up and running
against Oracle at the time. The main pain was getting the ODBC drivers set up.

Getting that working smoothly with postgres and actively developed could make
for a really nice DML tool.

--
greg

D'oh, just clued into the 'java' aspect ... Joshua, will this run as a
JSP, remotely, through Jakarta-Tomcat? One of the limitations of pgAdmin,
as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that you can run it remotely

Then use phpPgAdmin...

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Dunstan [mailto:andrew@dunslane.net]
Sent: 05 November 2003 00:53
To: PostgreSQL-development
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Open Sourcing pgManage

Andreas Pflug wrote:

pgAdmin is designed for a good interactive experience, which isn't
achievable using web technologies. SSL connection is

supported, so on

not-too-slow lines remote usage should be possible without security
issues, or over a VPN (I'm working like this).
For web access, phpPGadmin should be usable; haven't tried so far.

I don't think any of this contradicts what Marc said.

Maybe not, but you can easily run pgAdmin remotely over X if you have a
need to run it locally on a remote server. I've done so a number of
times and found it quite usable on my cheapo DSL line at home.

And, as Joshua pointed out it could with some work be made to
run as an applet, which would be very cool for, say, an ISP
to provide (nothing at all required for the user to install).

Yeah, I agree X is not a solution to that. phpPgAdmin is though...

Don't get me wrong - pgadmin is cool - I especially recommend
it to my Windows oriented clients and colleagues who hate
using command lines.

Why not your Linux or FreeBSD oriented colleagues? It runs just as well
on those platforms.

Regards, Dave.

Greg Stark wrote:

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

I think there is room for lots of GUIs, though, and having a Java admin GUI
would be cool too, as would having a servlet/JSP based admin client deployable
as a web archive.

If someone's looking for an interesting GUI project, Applix had a database
frontend that was geared more for data rather than DDL. It presented a
spreadsheet-like interface for arbitrary sql queries and handled dealing with
arbitrary sized result sets and allowing editing of fields using primary keys
etc.

pgAdmin3 has not only the DDL browsing tool, but also a data
manipulation tool, doing pretty much what you describe (spreadsheet
like, in-place editing, result set size only limited by the backend).
It's functionality is quite basic at the moment, enhancements in
progress. There are plans for a supplementing data manipulation
application suite that allows for import/transformation/... stuff. And
we plan to include a scripting engine into pgAdmin3 (probably Python),
for easy add-on programming.

Regards,
Andreas

Dave Page wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Dunstan [mailto:andrew@dunslane.net]

Don't get me wrong - pgadmin is cool - I especially recommend
it to my Windows oriented clients and colleagues who hate
using command lines.

Why not your Linux or FreeBSD oriented colleagues? It runs just as well
on those platforms.

"especially" != "only"

:-)

I have it installed on the RH9 machine I use for development, and
happily show it to people there.

most *nix people I come into contact with are old fossils like me who
prefer scripts and command lines for doing things. I don't use an IDE
(unless you count emacs as an IDE) for development, and I rarely use
control-panel-like apps.

BTW, pgadmin could improve its Linux coverage somewhat by a) providing
RPMs for versions of RedHat before 9, or at least providing SRPMs that
can be built on such platforms, and b) getting pgadmin included in the
fedora package set.

Anyway, CommandPrompt have apparently done something cool and they are
donating it and we should all be happy, no? :-)

cheers

andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Dunstan [mailto:andrew@dunslane.net]
Sent: 05 November 2003 12:48
To: PostgreSQL-development
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Open Sourcing pgManage

"especially" != "only"

Very true :-)

BTW, pgadmin could improve its Linux coverage somewhat by a)
providing
RPMs for versions of RedHat before 9,

Unfortunately we are somewhat limited to the boxes that our developers
have available, however if anyone can help out with additional
ports/distributions we would welcome them and help out in any way we
can.

or at least providing
SRPMs that
can be built on such platforms,

I believe they should do know - Jean-Michel, were you looking at this?

and b) getting pgadmin
included in the
fedora package set.

I only heard about Fedora about 20 minutes ago! Jean-Michel, do you have
any contacts that might be able to help with this?

Anyway, CommandPrompt have apparently done something cool and
they are
donating it and we should all be happy, no? :-)

With my PostgreSQL hat on, yes, it's a good thing. With my pgAdmin hat,
no, it's a bad thing!

Regards, Dave.

Dave Page wrote:

Anyway, CommandPrompt have apparently done something cool and
they are
donating it and we should all be happy, no? :-)

With my PostgreSQL hat on, yes, it's a good thing. With my pgAdmin hat,
no, it's a bad thing!

I'm feeling quite relaxed about that. Competition stimulates advances,
and we're better anyway :-)

Regards,
Andreas

gsstark@mit.edu (Greg Stark) writes:

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

I think there is room for lots of GUIs, though, and having a Java
admin GUI would be cool too, as would having a servlet/JSP based
admin client deployable as a web archive.

If someone's looking for an interesting GUI project, Applix had a
database frontend that was geared more for data rather than DDL. It
presented a spreadsheet-like interface for arbitrary sql queries and
handled dealing with arbitrary sized result sets and allowing
editing of fields using primary keys etc.

It was actually part of their open source release. I looked at
trying to pull it out of their build system and package it up
independently a while back. It was a bit of a pain. But I did manage
to get it compiled and up and running against Oracle at the
time. The main pain was getting the ODBC drivers set up.

Getting that working smoothly with postgres and actively developed
could make for a really nice DML tool.

Was that a 'native' part of SHELF? Or more related to their "TM1"
product?

FYI, while Applix and VistaSource have "orphaned" it, source code for
SHELF is still available at SourceForge.

ftp://ftp.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/shelf/

It was written for GTK 1.2; we're up to much newer stuff, and it's not
self-evident that it will play with newer versions. (Old versions are
presumably still available and quasi-usable...)
--
output = reverse("moc.enworbbc" "@" "enworbbc")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/sap.html
"For be a man's intellectual superiority what it will, it can never
assume the practical, available supremacy over other men, without the
aid of some sort of external arts and entrenchments, always, in
themselves, more or less paltry and base. This it is, that forever
keeps God's true princes of the Empire from the world's hustings; and
leaves the highest honors that this air can give, to those men who
become famous more through their infinite inferiority to the choice
hidden handful of the Divine Inert, than through their undoubted
superiority over the dead level of the mass." --Moby Dick, Ch 33

Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> writes:

Was that a 'native' part of SHELF? Or more related to their "TM1"
product?

The full source was included in SHELF (if that was the source release I'm
thinking of.) I think it was called axdata.

FYI, while Applix and VistaSource have "orphaned" it, source code for
SHELF is still available at SourceForge.

ftp://ftp.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/shelf/

--
greg