What do you want me to do?

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 12:16:23PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Here are the major things I do for the PostgreSQL project. Are there
some items I should be doing more/less of?

o Patches
o TODO/FAQ
o Email discussion, coordination
o Win32
o Talks
o Books/articles
o Web site cleanup
o Source code cleanup
o Features/fixes

I'd say stay away from web site and source code clean up; there are
already people working on those, or are very good areas for new
developers to start knowing the code. Keeping the TODO up to date
probably is a very important tool for coordinating the "janitorial
work." I remember thinking, when somebody proposed using the
bugtracking system, that other projects need it (bugtracking) because
they don't have a Bruce Momjian to do it for them.

Applying patches, mantaining the TODO and FAQ and coordinating things
are, AFAICS, part of your "historical" duties, so while they could
certainly be handled by someone else, it may be best for you to keep on
it.

You should really keep on your talks and courses. Given that teaching
is part of your professional career, you are probably the best qualified
person to do it.

I don't know much about articles, but if you can put some work on
updating your book it would be really cool.

I don't have an opinion on the Win32 issue.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"No renuncies a nada. No te aferres a nada."

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Here are the major things I do for the PostgreSQL project. Are there
some items I should be doing more/less of?

o Patches
o TODO/FAQ
o Email discussion, coordination
o Win32
o Talks
o Books/articles
o Web site cleanup
o Source code cleanup
o Features/fixes

o Spend time with the Family? :)

Alvaro Herrera wrote:

I don't have an opinion on the Win32 issue.

I do :-)

I think the most important thing for Win32 is for you to set the
direction somewhat (i.e. in more detail than is on your win32 page) and
then jump on Joshua's offer of a dedicated developer (possibly two) to
work on it for 320 hours.

cheers

andrew

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Here are the major things I do for the PostgreSQL project. Are there
some items I should be doing more/less of?

o Patches
o TODO/FAQ
o Email discussion, coordination
o Win32
o Talks
o Books/articles
o Web site cleanup
o Source code cleanup
o Features/fixes

o Spend time with the Family? :)

Actually, work on the house was a big item the past few weeks. I moved
into a new house a year ago but hadn't made much progress on my house
todo list in the previous six months, so I worked on that for a while.

The worst was my upstairs hallway that had no light fixtures, so late at
night if no other lights were on in the house, you had to walk down the
hallway with your hands out in front of you so you didn't bump into
anything. We had a nightlight in the hallway, but that didn't help
much.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Bruce Momjian writes:

o TODO/FAQ

The FAQ might as well be maintained just like the rest of the
documentation, i.e., by the development group as a whole.

The TODO list could be replaced by a kind of bug-tracking system with
developer write access only, so developers could keep their private notes
lists in public, add comments on why things are difficult, if the
perspective changes, etc. I have the feeling that key developers for the
most part ignore the TODO list and keep their private set of notes.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Here are the major things I do for the PostgreSQL project. Are there
some items I should be doing more/less of?

o Patches
o TODO/FAQ
o Email discussion, coordination
o Win32
o Talks
o Books/articles
o Web site cleanup
o Source code cleanup
o Features/fixes

o Spend time with the Family? :)

Actually, work on the house was a big item the past few weeks. I moved
into a new house a year ago but hadn't made much progress on my house
todo list in the previous six months, so I worked on that for a while.

The worst was my upstairs hallway that had no light fixtures, so late at
night if no other lights were on in the house, you had to walk down the
hallway with your hands out in front of you so you didn't bump into
anything. We had a nightlight in the hallway, but that didn't help
much.

Nightgoogles? :)

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Bruce Momjian writes:

o TODO/FAQ

The FAQ might as well be maintained just like the rest of the
documentation, i.e., by the development group as a whole.

I encourage others to commit to the FAQ.html file in CVS. The only
unique thing I do is to generate the flat file in /docs, and that can be
done at release time.

The TODO list could be replaced by a kind of bug-tracking system with
developer write access only, so developers could keep their private notes
lists in public, add comments on why things are difficult, if the
perspective changes, etc. I have the feeling that key developers for the
most part ignore the TODO list and keep their private set of notes.

The only unique thing I do there is to generate an HTML and throw it on
the web site; again, others are encouraged to update it. I do like
having a file that is small enough to be readable in a short time, but
the right bug-tracking system could do that.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes:

The worst was my upstairs hallway that had no light fixtures, so late at
night if no other lights were on in the house, you had to walk down the
hallway with your hands out in front of you so you didn't bump into
anything. We had a nightlight in the hallway, but that didn't help
much.

Here's the solution:
<http://www.nightvis.com/site/hm/pvs5/default.asp&gt;

Excalibur's Dual Tube Goggle Systems are precision-manufactured
night vision devices which provide near-daylight operational
capabilities at night. A built-in Infrared Light Emitting Diode (IR
LED) provides on-call covert illumination for close-up work in
totally dark areas. In addition, the dual tube configuration
improves reliability and aids in the physical coordination of tasks,
such as traversing uneven terrain, or performing complicated tasks
by hand.
--
output = reverse("ofni.smrytrebil" "@" "enworbbc")
<http://dev6.int.libertyrms.com/&gt;
Christopher Browne
(416) 646 3304 x124 (land)

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 14:00, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Bruce Momjian writes:

o TODO/FAQ

The FAQ might as well be maintained just like the rest of the
documentation, i.e., by the development group as a whole.

I encourage others to commit to the FAQ.html file in CVS. The only
unique thing I do is to generate the flat file in /docs, and that can be
done at release time.

The TODO list could be replaced by a kind of bug-tracking system with
developer write access only, so developers could keep their private notes
lists in public, add comments on why things are difficult, if the
perspective changes, etc. I have the feeling that key developers for the
most part ignore the TODO list and keep their private set of notes.

The only unique thing I do there is to generate an HTML and throw it on
the web site; again, others are encouraged to update it. I do like
having a file that is small enough to be readable in a short time, but
the right bug-tracking system could do that.

I know most people have talked about using bugzilla, but is anyone
familiar with GNATS? I'm currently rereading Open Sources and there's a
paragraph or two mentioning it's use and the fact that it can be
interfaced with completely by email.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 14:00, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Bruce Momjian writes:

o TODO/FAQ

The FAQ might as well be maintained just like the rest of the
documentation, i.e., by the development group as a whole.

I encourage others to commit to the FAQ.html file in CVS. The only
unique thing I do is to generate the flat file in /docs, and that can be
done at release time.

The TODO list could be replaced by a kind of bug-tracking system with
developer write access only, so developers could keep their private notes
lists in public, add comments on why things are difficult, if the
perspective changes, etc. I have the feeling that key developers for the
most part ignore the TODO list and keep their private set of notes.

The only unique thing I do there is to generate an HTML and throw it on
the web site; again, others are encouraged to update it. I do like
having a file that is small enough to be readable in a short time, but
the right bug-tracking system could do that.

I know most people have talked about using bugzilla, but is anyone
familiar with GNATS? I'm currently rereading Open Sources and there's a
paragraph or two mentioning it's use and the fact that it can be
interfaced with completely by email.

FreeBSD uses it almost exclusively and it supports email interaction with
the database, but I don't think there are very many good GUI front ends
for it (or, at least, not that I've seen) ...

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

I know most people have talked about using bugzilla, but is anyone
familiar with GNATS? I'm currently rereading Open Sources and there's a
paragraph or two mentioning it's use and the fact that it can be
interfaced with completely by email.

FreeBSD uses it almost exclusively and it supports email interaction with
the database, but I don't think there are very many good GUI front ends
for it (or, at least, not that I've seen) ...

No.

A few other thoughts:
. the Samba team have apparently abandoned their own tool and moved to
bugzilla
. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla
team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)
. it would seem slightly strange to me for an RDBMS project to use a bug
tracking system that was not RDBMS-backed
. developers are far more likely to be familiar with bugzilla
. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is
pure email interaction important?

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

cheers

andrew

Christopher Browne wrote:

pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes:

The worst was my upstairs hallway that had no light fixtures, so late at
night if no other lights were on in the house, you had to walk down the
hallway with your hands out in front of you so you didn't bump into
anything. We had a nightlight in the hallway, but that didn't help
much.

Here's the solution:
<http://www.nightvis.com/site/hm/pvs5/default.asp&gt;

Excalibur's Dual Tube Goggle Systems are precision-manufactured
night vision devices which provide near-daylight operational
capabilities at night. A built-in Infrared Light Emitting Diode (IR
LED) provides on-call covert illumination for close-up work in
totally dark areas. In addition, the dual tube configuration
improves reliability and aids in the physical coordination of tasks,
such as traversing uneven terrain, or performing complicated tasks
by hand.

Or the low-tech solution: don't go upstairs late at night ...

Christopher Browne wrote:

pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes:

The worst was my upstairs hallway that had no light fixtures, so late at
night if no other lights were on in the house, you had to walk down the
hallway with your hands out in front of you so you didn't bump into
anything. We had a nightlight in the hallway, but that didn't help
much.

Here's the solution:
<http://www.nightvis.com/site/hm/pvs5/default.asp&gt;

Excalibur's Dual Tube Goggle Systems are precision-manufactured
night vision devices which provide near-daylight operational
capabilities at night. A built-in Infrared Light Emitting Diode (IR
LED) provides on-call covert illumination for close-up work in
totally dark areas. In addition, the dual tube configuration
improves reliability and aids in the physical coordination of tasks,
such as traversing uneven terrain, or performing complicated tasks
by hand.

Now that I think of it, I think my wife removed the night light because
she didn't like the light coming into our bedroom, and that's were
things really got dark.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

FWIW, I would like to try a bugzilla-based tracking system for Postgres.
Our last attempt at a tracking system failed miserably, but I think that
was (a) because the software we tried was really unpolished, and (b)
because we let anybody and his pet chihuahua enter bug reports, so the
signal-to-noise ratio went to zero in no time. As long as we can
restrict data entry to people who know what they're doing (not
necessarily developers, but people who know PG well enough to tell bug
from user error), I think it could work, and would beat the heck out of
the way we do things now.

. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla
team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)

Red Hat has been using a PG-based version of bugzilla for some time.
I'm not sure what the holdup is in getting that work merged back
upstream, but I'd sure like to see it happen. Anyway we could start
with using their version, rather than suffer the ignominy of using That
Other Database to track our own bug reports ;-)

. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is
pure email interaction important?

Bugzilla already does email output (ie, notify you of changes to bug
entries you're interested in) well enough. We thought during the last
go-round that it was important to have email input so we could allow
mail to pgsql-bugs to go directly into the tracking system, but in
hindsight that was a really bad idea. What we could use instead is for
someone knowledgeable to commit to transferring *valid* emailed bug
reports into the tracking system. Bruce could do that if he wants, but
there are surely dozens of other people who would be qualified to handle
this task.

Actually, whatever software we pick to run the tracking system,
my guess is that the experiment will not stand or fall on the software.
What we need for success is one or two people who will take
responsibility for housekeeping: putting in valid reports, spotting
duplicate reports and doing the right cleanup, etc. Do we have any
volunteers for that sort of thing?

regards, tom lane

Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Alvaro Herrera wrote:

I don't have an opinion on the Win32 issue.

I do :-)

I think the most important thing for Win32 is for you to set the
direction somewhat (i.e. in more detail than is on your win32 page) and
then jump on Joshua's offer of a dedicated developer (possibly two) to
work on it for 320 hours.

I am on it! I will talk to Joshua's guys every day if I can. I am going
over the emails now that need attention.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 23:07, Tom Lane wrote:

FWIW, I would like to try a bugzilla-based tracking system for Postgres.

Red Hat has been using a PG-based version of bugzilla for some time.
I'm not sure what the holdup is in getting that work merged back
upstream, but I'd sure like to see it happen.

Actually, the porting of Bugzilla to PostgreSQL has been under
development for some time. Or, to put it more precisely, it's an effort
to clean up the code from any MySQL-ism in order to run on different
databases.

Bug #98304 dedicated to PostgreSQL has been unfortunately opened for a
long time, you can see the discussion at
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98304
and the target release is the upcoming 2.18 - but targets have been
delayed before. I haven't checked recently if anything works right now.

Red Hat's port is more of a "hack" applied to a specific version of
Bugzilla. See http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98304#c57

IMHO it would be a good idea to help the Bugzilla team to finish the
port in time for release 2.18 and join a very active tool.

--
Alessio Bragadini <alessio@albourne.com>
APL Financial Services (Overseas) Ltd

. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla team's
efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)

I would actually suggest trying RT. It's not primarily a bug tracking system
and there's a bit of an impedance mismatch between a trouble ticketing system
and a bug tracking system. But there would be a few advantages.

RT has a big non-open-source-developer user-base. There are a lot of big
businesses using it for enterprise-class trouble-ticketing. Currently it
supports Postgres for a backend but a lot of the queries perform terribly.

The combination means Postgres makes a lot of bad impressions. There are
continually threads on the RT mailing lists about how to migrate an RT
installation to MySQL because Postgres isn't scaling up enough and MySQL
performs better. And these people aren't wrong, it does for RT because the
queries were originally written for MySQL.

If postgres ran RT these queries would probably get cleaned up rapidly. And
with optimized queries Postgres would undoubtedly scale better than MySQL to
large installations.

. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is pure
email interaction important?

Because web-only access to bug reports is a sure way to get them ignored.
You're depending on developers periodically checking some web page. I can
barely remember to check slashdot and news.google.com once a day, nevermind
the 50 bug pages for the various projects I'm subscribed to mailing lists for.

In any case both bugzilla and RT support mail notifications with the full
content of the changes, so that's pretty irrelevant. I think RT has more mail
integration because it's often used for trouble ticketing systems where e-mail
is the only published interface, but I'm not sure.

PS:

Another option is the Debian bug tracking system, which was rewritten recently
and is pretty neat. It's 100% mail driven with web pages to do various
searches and display bugs.

--
greg

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 04:07:46PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:

Actually, whatever software we pick to run the tracking system,
my guess is that the experiment will not stand or fall on the software.
What we need for success is one or two people who will take
responsibility for housekeeping: putting in valid reports, spotting
duplicate reports and doing the right cleanup, etc. Do we have any
volunteers for that sort of thing?

What kind of volunteers do you want? Do you want first-level people
who will filter most of the reports for noise, &c., before you get to
trusty developers, or do you want one or two people who really know
the code to take the reports and either file them in the bug tracking
system or in the round bin?

I've seen projects succeed both ways, and that's why I'm asking.

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Afilias Canada                        Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110

Tom Lane wrote:

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

FWIW, I would like to try a bugzilla-based tracking system for Postgres.
Our last attempt at a tracking system failed miserably, but I think that
was (a) because the software we tried was really unpolished, and (b)
because we let anybody and his pet chihuahua enter bug reports, so the
signal-to-noise ratio went to zero in no time. As long as we can
restrict data entry to people who know what they're doing (not
necessarily developers, but people who know PG well enough to tell bug
from user error), I think it could work, and would beat the heck out of
the way we do things now.

. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla
team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)

Red Hat has been using a PG-based version of bugzilla for some time.
I'm not sure what the holdup is in getting that work merged back
upstream, but I'd sure like to see it happen. Anyway we could start
with using their version, rather than suffer the ignominy of using That
Other Database to track our own bug reports ;-)

The status of this can be seen at:
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98304

This item is listed on their "Master Plan" page at
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bugzilla/roadmap.html as being in the
category "Things we want in 2.18 but will get pushed to 2.20 if they're
not completed by the time everything in the above list". I'd hate that
to happen.

The last comment on the bug page says:

"The Red Hat guys did a quick 'n dirty port. It works, but doesn't quite make
use of the best of PostgreSQL. Also, their tarball is out of date with the
current schema used by Bugzilla."

My experience is that migrating to new versions of bugzilla is a major pain, so I'd hate to start out with something we suspect we would have to throw away later.

The bug is actually assigned to David Lawrence at RedHat - maybe you'd like to get some status from him? :-)

. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is
pure email interaction important?

Bugzilla already does email output (ie, notify you of changes to bug
entries you're interested in) well enough. We thought during the last
go-round that it was important to have email input so we could allow
mail to pgsql-bugs to go directly into the tracking system, but in
hindsight that was a really bad idea. What we could use instead is for
someone knowledgeable to commit to transferring *valid* emailed bug
reports into the tracking system. Bruce could do that if he wants, but
there are surely dozens of other people who would be qualified to handle
this task.

Actually, whatever software we pick to run the tracking system,
my guess is that the experiment will not stand or fall on the software.
What we need for success is one or two people who will take
responsibility for housekeeping: putting in valid reports, spotting
duplicate reports and doing the right cleanup, etc. Do we have any
volunteers for that sort of thing?

All good points. Bug triage is critical to success in my experience. You
can take the suggested approach of trying to rule them out before they
get into the system, or be aggressive about triage when they do get
there - I've seen both work. RedHat allows anybody (with or without
pooch) to sign up for an account and enter bugs, and I've had good
responses myself from them for bugs I've filed. There is a certain
niceness and openness about doing things that way, and I'm not sure the
triage effort is any greater. Your housekeeper looks at today's list and
either rules something not a bug or assigns it. For emailed bugs I agree
doing triage before they get into the system makes sense.

And, since I have argued for it I guess I should volunteer to help,
although my knowledge of pg internals is still on the steep part of the
learning curve.

cheers

andrew

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 15:28, Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

I know most people have talked about using bugzilla, but is anyone
familiar with GNATS? I'm currently rereading Open Sources and there's a
paragraph or two mentioning it's use and the fact that it can be
interfaced with completely by email.

FreeBSD uses it almost exclusively and it supports email interaction with
the database, but I don't think there are very many good GUI front ends
for it (or, at least, not that I've seen) ...

No.

personal axe to grind? I've never used it, but it's been around a long
time, allows for interaction completely through email (which is how we
do things now), has a web front end for anyone who wants to use it to
use, and as i understand it has a tcl based desktop app for folks to use
as well. seems it's being dismissed prematurely imho.

A few other thoughts:
. the Samba team have apparently abandoned their own tool and moved to
bugzilla
. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla
team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)
. it would seem slightly strange to me for an RDBMS project to use a bug
tracking system that was not RDBMS-backed

we serve far more static pages on the website than we do database driven
ones... the software we distribute is housed on fileservers and sent via
ftp, we dont expect people to store and retrieve it from a database...
our mailing lists software actually uses another db product in fact...
let's just get the right tool for the job...

. developers are far more likely to be familiar with bugzilla

developers are far more likely to be familiar with windows and mysql as
well...

. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is
pure email interaction important?

for the same reason mailing lists work better than message boards...
it's just easier. i'm much more likely to read an email list the scroll
through web forms, and if i am going to respond to a bug report, i'm
much mroe likely to if i can hit "reply" and start typing than if i have
to fire up a browser to do it.

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

don't get me wrong, i like bugzilla and all, but theres no need to put
blinders on...

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Jira is a fantastic bug tracking project management system and is
available free of charge for open source projects.

http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/

Dave

Robert Treat wrote:

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 15:28, Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

I know most people have talked about using bugzilla, but is anyone
familiar with GNATS? I'm currently rereading Open Sources and there's a
paragraph or two mentioning it's use and the fact that it can be
interfaced with completely by email.

FreeBSD uses it almost exclusively and it supports email interaction with
the database, but I don't think there are very many good GUI front ends
for it (or, at least, not that I've seen) ...

No.

personal axe to grind?

er, no. I was only agreeing with Marc about GUI interfaces. What axe to
grind do you imagine I could have? Postgres is a fine product, and I
have been very glad to find that its development process is very open in
fact as well as in name. I want to see it succeed. To that end I want to
free Bruce and Tom and everybody else from as much drudgery as possible
and at the same time make finding out the state of things easier. That's
all.

I've never used it, but it's been around a long
time, allows for interaction completely through email (which is how we
do things now), has a web front end for anyone who wants to use it to
use, and as i understand it has a tcl based desktop app for folks to use
as well. seems it's being dismissed prematurely imho.

Every person wishing to submit a bug will have to have send-pr installed
or else we'll get lots of reports not broken up into fields. That
doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

A few other thoughts:
. the Samba team have apparently abandoned their own tool and moved to
bugzilla
. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla
team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)
. it would seem slightly strange to me for an RDBMS project to use a bug
tracking system that was not RDBMS-backed

we serve far more static pages on the website than we do database driven
ones...

*nod* but there has been talk of moving to bricolage, hasn't there?

the software we distribute is housed on fileservers and sent via
ftp, we dont expect people to store and retrieve it from a database...

you're reaching now ...

our mailing lists software actually uses another db product in fact...
let's just get the right tool for the job...

Yes. I agree. Bugs (including enhancements) strike me as a classic case
of data that belongs in a database.

. developers are far more likely to be familiar with bugzilla

developers are far more likely to be familiar with windows and mysql as
well...

c'mon ...

. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is
pure email interaction important?

for the same reason mailing lists work better than message boards...
it's just easier. i'm much more likely to read an email list the scroll
through web forms, and if i am going to respond to a bug report, i'm
much mroe likely to if i can hit "reply" and start typing than if i have
to fire up a browser to do it.

Tom explicitly said he *didn't* want a system where email poured
straight into the bugtrack db.

Yes, it is a different way of doing things, and it takes getting used to.

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

don't get me wrong, i like bugzilla and all, but theres no need to put
blinders on...

I don't. But I do think the current processes can stand improvement.

cheers

andrew

Dave Cramer wrote:

Jira is a fantastic bug tracking project management system and is
available free of charge for open source projects.

http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/

Wow, that looks very cool indeed! And they are Aussies to boot! :-)

cheers

andreew

Tom Lane wrote:

Bugzilla already does email output (ie, notify you of changes to bug
entries you're interested in) well enough. We thought during the last
go-round that it was important to have email input so we could allow
mail to pgsql-bugs to go directly into the tracking system, but in
hindsight that was a really bad idea. What we could use instead is for
someone knowledgeable to commit to transferring *valid* emailed bug
reports into the tracking system. Bruce could do that if he wants, but
there are surely dozens of other people who would be qualified to handle
this task.

I could do it, but I am not looking for additional work. I will
continue to maintain the ordinary TODO list until we decide the bug
system is going to work.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Tom Lane wrote:

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

FWIW, I would like to try a bugzilla-based tracking system for Postgres.
Our last attempt at a tracking system failed miserably, but I think that
was (a) because the software we tried was really unpolished, and (b)
because we let anybody and his pet chihuahua enter bug reports, so the
signal-to-noise ratio went to zero in no time.

Ya, if I recall correctly, we tried to use Keystone *way* back, cause it
was about all that was available at the time ... and altho I'm the one
that installed it, I didn't particularly like the software either :(

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

Dave Cramer wrote:

Jira is a fantastic bug tracking project management system and is
available free of charge for open source projects.

Wow, that looks very cool indeed! And they are Aussies to boot! :-)

But they don't seem to be on the free-open-source wavelength.
PostgreSQL is free, period. So is all the software we depend upon.
I don't think we are interested in depending upon code that has this
sort of verbiage about how you are allowed to use it and what it will
cost:
http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/pricing.jsp

regards, tom lane

Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> writes:

The last comment on the bug page says:

"The Red Hat guys did a quick 'n dirty port. It works, but doesn't
quite make use of the best of PostgreSQL. Also, their tarball is out
of date with the current schema used by Bugzilla."

The bug is actually assigned to David Lawrence at RedHat - maybe you'd

like to get some status from him? :-)

Dave is the guy who did the aforementioned quick-n-dirty port. AFAIK
he doesn't really have time to do the wholesale redesign that the
Bugzilla developers have decided they need to have any database
independence.

The "doesn't quite make the best use of PG" quote is one of the best
examples of buck-passing I've seen in awhile. If Bugzilla had been
designed with some thought to DB independence to start with, we'd not
be having this discussion.

regards, tom lane

The "doesn't quite make the best use of PG" quote is one of the best
examples of buck-passing I've seen in awhile. If Bugzilla had been
designed with some thought to DB independence to start with, we'd not
be having this discussion.

You have to laugh at an app that actually uses MySQL's replication to
get around not having row locks!!!

And it actually has a sanity check feature for 'checking' your
referential integrity.

I laughed so hard I cried.

And yet we use it at work :P

Chris

Tom Lane writes:

What we could use instead is for someone knowledgeable to commit to
transferring *valid* emailed bug reports into the tracking system.
Bruce could do that if he wants, but there are surely dozens of other
people who would be qualified to handle this task.

I don't think we need decicated bug transferrers. Typically, when someone
reports a problem by email, the first step is that some developer or other
expert responds (unless the reporter gets blown away by fellow users as
clueless :-)). So the natural extension of this process would be that the
person doing the analysis records the problem. The only way we can get
more people involved in doing the recording is if more people can do the
analyzing. And that step is independent of the presence of a bug-tracking
system.

In other words, I don't want to have a group of people cleaning up after
a different group of people along the lines of the current "Is this a TODO
item?". That way, we'd just have a more complex technology but no process
improvement.

I don't even think that the flood of bug reports is that bad. Over the
last 60 days I counted at most 14 genuine bug reports on pgsql-bugs,
including those that are "wishlist" items and those that are old project
lore and would have been duplicates of existing recorded bugs. So even if
you count in bugs coming in through other channels, this should be
manageable.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

I think we should use the best tool available, he is more than willing
to allow open source projects to use it for free.

Dave

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:

I don't think we need decicated bug transferrers. Typically, when someone
reports a problem by email, the first step is that some developer or other
expert responds (unless the reporter gets blown away by fellow users as
clueless :-)). So the natural extension of this process would be that the
person doing the analysis records the problem.

Yeah, that sounds like it would work.

I still think it would be a good idea to have one or two people actively
in charge of the overall health of the bug repository --- cross-linking
duplicate bugs, making sure fixed bugs get closed out, in general
correcting misinformation when they find it. This wouldn't be a large
time commitment AFAICS, but without somebody applying pressure in the
right direction I think that the general quality of information in
the database would inevitably slide downhill.

regards, tom lane

http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/pricing.jsp

I have no particular opinion on whether to use a free or non-free system
to track bugs, but I'd like to recommend RT as being a very capable and
useful program. It has been used to track Perl 5 and CPAN bugs for some
time now, and it happens to be free (and it can use PostgreSQL :).

<http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/&gt;

-- ams

I still think it would be a good idea to have one or two people actively
in charge of the overall health of the bug repository --- cross-linking
duplicate bugs, making sure fixed bugs get closed out, in general
correcting misinformation when they find it. This wouldn't be a large

I think there are a number of people out there who would be willing to
do this, myself included.

--
Rod Taylor <pg [at] rbt [dot] ca>

Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/pricing.jsp

Another option is free open source Scarab, http://scarab.tigris.org Actually,
I'd prefer it.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

Tom Lane wrote:

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:

I don't think we need decicated bug transferrers. Typically, when someone
reports a problem by email, the first step is that some developer or other
expert responds (unless the reporter gets blown away by fellow users as
clueless :-)). So the natural extension of this process would be that the
person doing the analysis records the problem.

Yeah, that sounds like it would work.

I still think it would be a good idea to have one or two people actively
in charge of the overall health of the bug repository --- cross-linking
duplicate bugs, making sure fixed bugs get closed out, in general
correcting misinformation when they find it. This wouldn't be a large
time commitment AFAICS, but without somebody applying pressure in the
right direction I think that the general quality of information in
the database would inevitably slide downhill.

You have described a good part of my professional life in the last 3
years ;-) I had a meeting every morning with product/project management
to review/triage bugs and in turn I would spend hours asking my staff
"What is happening with bug xyz?". I lived off the bug system (bugzilla
and/or ClearQuest). Getting developers used to it is still a hassle - I
once had to send out an email that said in effect "if you aren't working
on a defect assigned to you then you aren't doing your job."

In a volunteer project things work somewhat differently, of course, but
the housekeeping functions are still essential.

cheers

andrew

Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

The "doesn't quite make the best use of PG" quote is one of the best
examples of buck-passing I've seen in awhile. If Bugzilla had been
designed with some thought to DB independence to start with, we'd not
be having this discussion.

You have to laugh at an app that actually uses MySQL's replication to
get around not having row locks!!!

And it actually has a sanity check feature for 'checking' your
referential integrity.

I laughed so hard I cried.

And yet we use it at work :P

Bugzilla was put together by a guy who admitted he didn't know much
about databases, IIRC. It worked and he was in a hurry.

This is a classic story of a piece of software that is far more long
lasting and far more dirty than was originally intended - I have seen it
before many times and I expect to see it until I die. I could tell many
similar stories that would make you laugh/cry even harder, but this
isn't the place or time :-)

Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a
small "hit team" that would take some high profile open source projects
and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most
obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could
be quite productive, though.

Thoughts?

andrew

Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a
small "hit team" that would take some high profile open source projects
and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most
obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could
be quite productive, though.

Thoughts?

Count me out - I spend way too much of my time working on phpPgAdmin as
it is :)

Chris

On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 04:12:50PM +0800, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a
small "hit team" that would take some high profile open source projects
and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most
obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could
be quite productive, though.

Count me out - I spend way too much of my time working on phpPgAdmin as
it is :)

Count me out too. I already ported MagicPoint to work well with
Postgres, and I'm a little overwhelmed already to do anything else.

err... so, how does MagicPoint use Postgres? I suppose it's only
because some of us use it to give Postgres talks and such ;-)

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"On the other flipper, one wrong move and we're Fatal Exceptions"
(T.U.X.: Term Unit X - http://www.thelinuxreview.com/TUX/)

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 18:37, Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Robert Treat wrote:

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 15:28, Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

I know most people have talked about using bugzilla, but is anyone
familiar with GNATS? I'm currently rereading Open Sources and there's a
paragraph or two mentioning it's use and the fact that it can be
interfaced with completely by email.

FreeBSD uses it almost exclusively and it supports email interaction with
the database, but I don't think there are very many good GUI front ends
for it (or, at least, not that I've seen) ...

No.

personal axe to grind?

er, no. I was only agreeing with Marc about GUI interfaces. What axe to
grind do you imagine I could have?

sorry, i just wondered because you gave a one word response dismissing
the idea and moved on...

I've never used it, but it's been around a long
time, allows for interaction completely through email (which is how we
do things now), has a web front end for anyone who wants to use it to
use, and as i understand it has a tcl based desktop app for folks to use
as well. seems it's being dismissed prematurely imho.

Every person wishing to submit a bug will have to have send-pr installed
or else we'll get lots of reports not broken up into fields. That
doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

not really... we can still have a web interface to it, so anyone
submitting a bug could use the web interface. now maybe for regular
folks working on bugs this would be an issue.. don't know, i'm not
familiar send-pr...

A few other thoughts:
. the Samba team have apparently abandoned their own tool and moved to
bugzilla
. if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla
team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that)
. it would seem slightly strange to me for an RDBMS project to use a bug
tracking system that was not RDBMS-backed

we serve far more static pages on the website than we do database driven
ones...

*nod* but there has been talk of moving to bricolage, hasn't there?

if only because it outputs static content...

the software we distribute is housed on fileservers and sent via
ftp, we dont expect people to store and retrieve it from a database...

you're reaching now ...

our mailing lists software actually uses another db product in fact...
let's just get the right tool for the job...

Yes. I agree. Bugs (including enhancements) strike me as a classic case
of data that belongs in a database.

i think it's something that needs to be searchable, whether that
requires "the worlds most powerful open source object relational
database management system" is something else entirely ;-)

. developers are far more likely to be familiar with bugzilla

developers are far more likely to be familiar with windows and mysql as
well...

c'mon ...

your strawman meets my strawman...

. are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is
pure email interaction important?

for the same reason mailing lists work better than message boards...
it's just easier. i'm much more likely to read an email list the scroll
through web forms, and if i am going to respond to a bug report, i'm
much mroe likely to if i can hit "reply" and start typing than if i have
to fire up a browser to do it.

Tom explicitly said he *didn't* want a system where email poured
straight into the bugtrack db.

Which I find odd since thats essentially the system we have now...

Yes, it is a different way of doing things, and it takes getting used to.

Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better.

don't get me wrong, i like bugzilla and all, but theres no need to put
blinders on...

I don't. But I do think the current processes can stand improvement.

right... i think gnats is one way of doing that. bugzilla is decent, it
just doesn't seems as advanced as gnats which is why i brought it up...
we don't need to beat it to death though, I think tom has fixed more
bugs than me recently so if he is interested in bugzilla i'm all for
giving it a twirl...

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Andrew Dunstan writes:

Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a
small "hit team" that would take some high profile open source projects
and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most
obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could
be quite productive, though.

Good thought, but a hit team is not the right answer, because any project
that would have been "hit" in this way will just go bad again the moment
its database layer is changed. What would work better are "consultants":
people that hang around on the other project's mailing lists, offer advise
on database layer modelling and implementation, do clean up tasks, check
regularly if everything works with the PG development branch, be there
when the developers of that other project have a question. I've been
doing a bit of that, and my sensation is that most developers of
database-backed applications are dying to have people like that at their
disposal.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

On Tuesday 11 November 2003 19:19, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Andrew Dunstan writes:

Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a
small "hit team" that would take some high profile open source projects
and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most
obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could
be quite productive, though.

Good thought, but a hit team is not the right answer, because any project
that would have been "hit" in this way will just go bad again the moment
its database layer is changed. What would work better are "consultants":
people that hang around on the other project's mailing lists, offer advise
on database layer modelling and implementation, do clean up tasks, check
regularly if everything works with the PG development branch, be there
when the developers of that other project have a question. I've been
doing a bit of that, and my sensation is that most developers of
database-backed applications are dying to have people like that at their
disposal.

So forming a new group is quite beneficial?

I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware
but haven't got around it..

Shridhar

Shridhar Daithankar writes:

So forming a new group is quite beneficial?

No, we don't need one group, we need many individuals (or possibly small
groups) to get in contact with their second favorite projects and hang out
there.

I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware
but haven't got around it..

When I said "I've been doing a bit of that", I meant "the developers of
eGroupWare call me once a week with questions". So maybe you can take
over dbmail. :-)

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Andrew Dunstan writes:

Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a
small "hit team" that would take some high profile open source projects
and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most
obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could
be quite productive, though.

Good thought, but a hit team is not the right answer, because any project
that would have been "hit" in this way will just go bad again the moment
its database layer is changed. What would work better are "consultants":
people that hang around on the other project's mailing lists, offer advise
on database layer modelling and implementation, do clean up tasks, check
regularly if everything works with the PG development branch, be there
when the developers of that other project have a question. I've been
doing a bit of that, and my sensation is that most developers of
database-backed applications are dying to have people like that at their
disposal.

Well, I didn't mean "hit and run" team ;-). I take your point, though.
However, some projects will need a big effort up front - Bugzilla
certainly will. I am doing some work on it but any help will be
appreciated. Part of the problem is that there is no layering of the
app, separating out the logical and physical views. So instead of a nice
procedural layer where one could concentrate the creation of Db-specific
SQL, it is littered throughout the app. Some of the issues include:
. efficient replacement of the enumerated types
. transactional safety
. properly replacing the calles to "replace into"
. full text searching
. migration scripts
As you can see, doing it properly is quite a big job.

However, I also think that there is value in identifying those projects
that will give the best bang for the buck for our project, and then
trying to concentrate some resources on those. Your suggestion elsewhere
of "pick your second favourite app" is likely to result in a more
scattergun approach. Also, if it had the imprimatur of the PostgreSQL
community to some extent appraoches to projects might be more welcome -
"Dear open-source-project-manager, on behalf of the PostgrSQL community
we would like to offer you assistance in making sure your application
works with PostgrSQL, the world's most advanced open-source database
system...."

cheers

andrew

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Shridhar Daithankar writes:

So forming a new group is quite beneficial?

No, we don't need one group, we need many individuals (or possibly small
groups) to get in contact with their second favorite projects and hang out
there.

I meant lets form a group within advocacy which would consult other projects.
Since we would expect people to encounter similar kind of problem, a group
within advocacy/general might be a good idea.

Of course we need not do anything special till we have sizable projets being
consulted. Can we at least have a web page for projects that use/prefer
postgresql. I think I put ahead such idea of cross linking earlier as well.

I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware
but haven't got around it..

When I said "I've been doing a bit of that", I meant "the developers of
eGroupWare call me once a week with questions". So maybe you can take
over dbmail. :-)

Sure. Check this.

-----------
Hello,

My name is <> and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql
advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help
other projects w.r.t postgresql.

So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to
appropriate forums/persons effectively.

Regards
-----------

Sounds good? Or too aggressive?

Bye
Shridhar

On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 09:42, Shridhar Daithankar wrote:

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Shridhar Daithankar writes:

I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware
but haven't got around it..

When I said "I've been doing a bit of that", I meant "the developers of
eGroupWare call me once a week with questions". So maybe you can take
over dbmail. :-)

I'm already on the dbmail lists, and have been providing pro-postgresql
feedback and testing to them for a while. But the more the merrier.

Sure. Check this.

-----------
Hello,

My name is <> and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql
advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help
other projects w.r.t postgresql.

So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to
appropriate forums/persons effectively.

Not sure we need to be this formal.

Andrew Dunstan writes:

Your suggestion elsewhere of "pick your second favourite app" is likely
to result in a more scattergun approach. Also, if it had the imprimatur
of the PostgreSQL community to some extent appraoches to projects might
be more welcome - "Dear open-source-project-manager, on behalf of the
PostgrSQL community we would like to offer you assistance in making sure
your application works with PostgrSQL, the world's most advanced
open-source database system...."

The only way someone is going to get work done on a sustained basis is if
he's got a personal interest, the so-called "itch". You're not going to
achieve anything, except possibly being ridiculed, if you start sending
out form letters "on behalf of the PostgreSQL community".

If people already support PostgreSQL to some extent, go there and test it
and send in patches with improvements. If people don't support PostgreSQL
yet, get a good sense for what the feeling of the project maintainers
toward database abstraction layers is, then throw out a design plan. But
the key is to show results, not intentions. That is how open-source
development works.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Andrew Dunstan writes:

Your suggestion elsewhere of "pick your second favourite app" is likely
to result in a more scattergun approach. Also, if it had the imprimatur
of the PostgreSQL community to some extent appraoches to projects might
be more welcome - "Dear open-source-project-manager, on behalf of the
PostgrSQL community we would like to offer you assistance in making sure
your application works with PostgrSQL, the world's most advanced
open-source database system...."

The only way someone is going to get work done on a sustained basis is if
he's got a personal interest, the so-called "itch". You're not going to
achieve anything, except possibly being ridiculed, if you start sending
out form letters "on behalf of the PostgreSQL community".

If people already support PostgreSQL to some extent, go there and test it
and send in patches with improvements. If people don't support PostgreSQL
yet, get a good sense for what the feeling of the project maintainers
toward database abstraction layers is, then throw out a design plan. But
the key is to show results, not intentions. That is how open-source
development works.

*shrug*

I'm not sending out anything.

OpenSource works in lots of different ways, in my experience. Some
projects welcome all comers, some are very exclusive, for example.

Anyway, in relation to bugzilla, I am working on stuff to submit to
them, so I won't be faced with "show me the code" challenges. I nearly
have a db-independant table creation module ready, but that will be just
a start.

cheers

andrew

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Shridhar Daithankar wrote:

-----------
Hello,

My name is <> and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql
advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help
other projects w.r.t postgresql.

So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to
appropriate forums/persons effectively.

Regards
-----------

Sounds good? Or too aggressive?

Why not just submit appropriate patches? *raised eyebrow*

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Shridhar Daithankar wrote:

-----------
Hello,

My name is <> and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql
advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help
other projects w.r.t postgresql.

So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to
appropriate forums/persons effectively.

Regards
-----------

Sounds good? Or too aggressive?

Why not just submit appropriate patches? *raised eyebrow*

As I understood Shridhar and the others, these "foreign list lurkers"
are not necessarily those who can answer the questions or fix either
PostgreSQL or the other system, but more human "watchdogs" who bark when
there is some need for community interaction.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #

In article <60islwrmgy.fsf@dev6.int.libertyrms.info> you wrote:

pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes:

The worst was my upstairs hallway that had no light fixtures, so
late at night if no other lights were on in the house, you had to
walk down the hallway with your hands out in front of you so you
didn't bump into anything. We had a nightlight in the hallway, but
that didn't help much.

Here's the solution:
<http://www.nightvis.com/site/hm/pvs5/default.asp&gt;

Excalibur's Dual Tube Goggle Systems are precision-manufactured
night vision devices which provide near-daylight operational
capabilities at night. A built-in Infrared Light Emitting Diode (IR
LED) provides on-call covert illumination for close-up work in
totally dark areas. In addition, the dual tube configuration
improves reliability and aids in the physical coordination of
tasks, such as traversing uneven terrain, or performing complicated
tasks by hand.

I guess that's OK, but it shows up like a beacon to all kinds of
hostile gear. Passive systems are usually a better bet.

Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778

Information causes change, and if it doesn't, it's not information.
You're sitting in a seat: that's not information. The person next to
you has a communicable disease: now that's information.
James Burke

It's rumoured that David Fetter once said:

I guess that's OK, but it shows up like a beacon to all kinds of
hostile gear. Passive systems are usually a better bet.

Are there many hostile forces in your hallway?

:-)

/D

On Fri, Dec 26, 2003 at 10:48:20AM -0000, Dave Page wrote:

It's rumoured that David Fetter once said:

I guess that's OK, but it shows up like a beacon to all kinds of
hostile gear. Passive systems are usually a better bet.

Are there many hostile forces in your hallway?

Most days not, but I've heard PA can be pretty rough ;)

Cheers,
'nother D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778