Linux vs FreeBSD

On 4/3/2014 9:03 PM, Fran�ois Beausoleil wrote:

The host is a dedicated hardware machine at online.fr: 128 GB RAM, 2 x 3TB disk in RAID 1 configuration.

just a passing comment...

3TB disks are 7200rpm and suitable for nearline bulk storage (or desktop
use), not high performance database random access. you'd get way more IO
throughput with a raid10 array of 15k rpm SAS disks, maybe 10 x 600GB or
whatever, or with a suitable SSD configuration, although 3TB of SSD
might get expensive.

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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 9:33 AM, François Beausoleil <francois@teksol.info>wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance
issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot,
between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate
some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering
FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements
out of the switch.

Our workload is lots of data import, followed by many queries to summarize
(daily and weekly reports). Our main table is a wide table that represents
Twitter and Facebook interactions. Most of our reports work on a week's
worth of data (table is partitioned by week), and the tables are
approximately 25 GB plus 5 GB of indices, per week. Of course, while
reports are ongoing, we're also importing next week's data.

The host is a dedicated hardware machine at online.fr: 128 GB RAM, 2 x
3TB disk in RAID 1 configuration.

I started thinking of this after reading "PostgreSQL pain points" at
https://lwn.net/Articles/591723/. In the comments, bronson says FreeBSD
does not exhibit the same problems (slow fsync, double buffering). On the
list here, I've read about problems with certain kernel versions on Ubuntu.

I'm not expecting anything magical, just some general guidelines and
hints. Did anybody do the migration and was happier after?

Thanks for any hints!
François Beausoleil

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3
17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

$ psql -U postgres -c "select version()"
version

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PostgreSQL 9.1.11 on x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, compiled by gcc
(Ubuntu/Linaro 4.6.3-1ubuntu5) 4.6.3, 64-bit

/proc/cpuinfo says: 8 CPUs, identified as "Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2609 0
@ 2.40GHz"

Cannot give you a comparison, but running couple of dedicated PG servers
(9.1 & 9.2) on FreeBSD 9.x. Not seen much of a problem, apart from tuning
some sysctl variables for higher memory usage. My hardware uses either SAS
or SSD disks. RAM varies between 32 to 128 GB between various servers. My
workload is more of lots of small read and writes.

Amitabh

FreeBSD is OK if you are experienced. As a system it requires much more maturity by the admin
than lets say Ubuntu which is targeted at a larger user base.
I'd say, explore your other Linux options first, since you already have experience with Linux.
FreeBSD requires a much bigger learning curve.

On 04/04/2014 07:03, François Beausoleil wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

Our workload is lots of data import, followed by many queries to summarize (daily and weekly reports). Our main table is a wide table that represents Twitter and Facebook interactions. Most of our reports work on a week's worth of data (table is partitioned by week), and the tables are approximately 25 GB plus 5 GB of indices, per week. Of course, while reports are ongoing, we're also importing next week's data.

The host is a dedicated hardware machine at online.fr: 128 GB RAM, 2 x 3TB disk in RAID 1 configuration.

I started thinking of this after reading "PostgreSQL pain points" at https://lwn.net/Articles/591723/. In the comments, bronson says FreeBSD does not exhibit the same problems (slow fsync, double buffering). On the list here, I've read about problems with certain kernel versions on Ubuntu.

I'm not expecting anything magical, just some general guidelines and hints. Did anybody do the migration and was happier after?

Thanks for any hints!
François Beausoleil

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

$ psql -U postgres -c "select version()"
version
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PostgreSQL 9.1.11 on x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, compiled by gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.6.3-1ubuntu5) 4.6.3, 64-bit

/proc/cpuinfo says: 8 CPUs, identified as "Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2609 0 @ 2.40GHz"

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On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:03 AM, François Beausoleil <francois@teksol.info> wrote:

I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%.

Is the SAN dedicated to this app? I wonder if the i/o, if not related to your app, is being pressed by some other system/s that are also on the SAN? You'll need to relate the wait events to your activities. I've been squeezed like that in the past.

Le 2014-04-04 à 08:11, Ray Stell a écrit :

On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:03 AM, François Beausoleil <francois@teksol.info> wrote:

I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%.

Is the SAN dedicated to this app? I wonder if the i/o, if not related to your app, is being pressed by some other system/s that are also on the SAN? You'll need to relate the wait events to your activities. I've been squeezed like that in the past.

There are no SAN: it's a dedicated machine, dedicated hardware. As John Pierce guessed, having more disks would help. I should probably look more towards that than switching OS.

Thanks!
François

As a side note, when we migrated the exact same pgsql 8.3 system from linux kernel 2.6 to 3.6,
we experienced an almost dramatic slowdown by 6 times.
Linux Kernel's were known to have issues around those dates, i recall.
We had to set synchronous_commit to off, this gave a huge boost ,
but this was no longer "apples" vs "apples".

On 04/04/2014 07:03, François Beausoleil wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

Our workload is lots of data import, followed by many queries to summarize (daily and weekly reports). Our main table is a wide table that represents Twitter and Facebook interactions. Most of our reports work on a week's worth of data (table is partitioned by week), and the tables are approximately 25 GB plus 5 GB of indices, per week. Of course, while reports are ongoing, we're also importing next week's data.

The host is a dedicated hardware machine at online.fr: 128 GB RAM, 2 x 3TB disk in RAID 1 configuration.

I started thinking of this after reading "PostgreSQL pain points" at https://lwn.net/Articles/591723/. In the comments, bronson says FreeBSD does not exhibit the same problems (slow fsync, double buffering). On the list here, I've read about problems with certain kernel versions on Ubuntu.

I'm not expecting anything magical, just some general guidelines and hints. Did anybody do the migration and was happier after?

Thanks for any hints!
François Beausoleil

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

$ psql -U postgres -c "select version()"
version
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PostgreSQL 9.1.11 on x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, compiled by gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.6.3-1ubuntu5) 4.6.3, 64-bit

/proc/cpuinfo says: 8 CPUs, identified as "Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2609 0 @ 2.40GHz"

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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:03 AM, François Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Our workload is lots of data import, followed by many queries to summarize (daily and weekly reports). Our main table is a wide table that represents Twitter and Facebook interactions. Most of our reports work on a week's worth of data (table is partitioned by week), and the tables are approximately 25 GB plus 5 GB of indices, per week. Of course, while reports are ongoing, we're also importing next week's data.

The host is a dedicated hardware machine at online.fr

: 128 GB RAM, 2 x 3TB disk in RAID 1 configuration.

I use FreeBSD pretty much exclusively. I would recommend using it to
anyone, but as others have said, there is a learning curve. If you are
comfortable on the command line, the curve is not that great. From a
postgres perspective, there is not that much difference once you dig
thru google to find a good set of OS settings (I'm happy to share
mine.)

That all said, I think you should do two things: First, improve your
disk system. Is your RAID soft or hardware? What file system do you
run on it? You want the file system to be the fastest you can have
that has the features you need. Pg is pretty good about crash
recovery, so having a log-based file system is not absolutely
necessary to save you there, but it depends on how much downtime you
can take for fsck to run. Since you're on spinning platters, you want
to peel off your pg_xlog directory to another set of drives in mirror
configuration. I personally like SSDs for this. You probably also do
not need the lvm layer here either. You imply that you are analyzing
one week while loading the next week. Perhaps set up a second disk
mirror (instead of RAID10 all of the disks) and use a separate
postgres table space to load the data on the "other" mirror from the
one you are currently analyzing, like odd/even week numbers.

The second item is that you said you are using "wide tables". You will
be amazed at how much better you could do by properly normalizing your
data as you import it, rather than what seems like just storing log
events and picking out what you need for your summaries. Postgres is
exceptionally good at optimizing queries with joins and summaries. I
would put forth some effort simplifying how you store the data to
match more closely with the answers you want from it.

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On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, François Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

From the research I've done online, this is likely your issue. Kernel
3.2.0 has some issues that directly and severely impact I/O wait times
for PostgreSQL. The suggested fixes (that seem to have worked for
most people reporting in) are to revert the OS to Ubuntu Server 10.04
or to install one of the HWE (HardWare Enablement) kernels into the
12.04 system (this would be one of the kernels from a later release of
Ubuntu provided in the 12.04 repositories).

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the Universe." -- Carl Sagan

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On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:02:07AM -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, Fran�ois Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

From the research I've done online, this is likely your issue. Kernel
3.2.0 has some issues that directly and severely impact I/O wait times
for PostgreSQL. The suggested fixes (that seem to have worked for
most people reporting in) are to revert the OS to Ubuntu Server 10.04
or to install one of the HWE (HardWare Enablement) kernels into the
12.04 system (this would be one of the kernels from a later release of
Ubuntu provided in the 12.04 repositories).

This highlights a more fundamental problem of the difference between a
workstation-based on OS like Ubuntu and a server-based one like Debian
or FreeBSD. I know Ubuntu has a "server" version, but fundamentally
Ubuntu's selection of kernels and feature churn make it less than ideal
for server deployments.

I am sure someone can post that they use Ubuntu just fine for server
deployments, but I continue to feel that Ubuntu is chosen by
administrators because it an OS they are familiar with on workstations,
rather than it being the best choice for servers.

--
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EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ Everyone has their own god. +

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On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Christofer C. Bell
<christofer.c.bell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, François Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

From the research I've done online, this is likely your issue. Kernel
3.2.0 has some issues that directly and severely impact I/O wait times
for PostgreSQL. The suggested fixes (that seem to have worked for
most people reporting in) are to revert the OS to Ubuntu Server 10.04
or to install one of the HWE (HardWare Enablement) kernels into the
12.04 system (this would be one of the kernels from a later release of
Ubuntu provided in the 12.04 repositories).

12.04 supports 3.8.0 directly. There's a site on putting 3.10.17 or so
on it as well I found by googling for it. You need 3.10+ if you wanna
play with bcache which is how I found it. But you don't need to jump
through any hoops to get 3.8.0 on 12.04.4 LTS

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Le 2014-04-09 à 16:20, Bruce Momjian a écrit :

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:02:07AM -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

This highlights a more fundamental problem of the difference between a
workstation-based on OS like Ubuntu and a server-based one like Debian
or FreeBSD. I know Ubuntu has a "server" version, but fundamentally
Ubuntu's selection of kernels and feature churn make it less than ideal
for server deployments.

I am sure someone can post that they use Ubuntu just fine for server
deployments, but I continue to feel that Ubuntu is chosen by
administrators because it an OS they are familiar with on workstations,
rather than it being the best choice for servers.

I'm not a full-time sysadmin. I chose Ubuntu because I have familiarity with it, and because installing Puppet on it installed the certificates and everything I needed to get going. I tried Debian, but I had to fight and find the correct procedures to install the Puppet certificates and all. Ubuntu saved me some time back then.

Cheers!
François

On Apr 9, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Christofer C. Bell
<christofer.c.bell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, François Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

From the research I've done online, this is likely your issue. Kernel
3.2.0 has some issues that directly and severely impact I/O wait times
for PostgreSQL. The suggested fixes (that seem to have worked for
most people reporting in) are to revert the OS to Ubuntu Server 10.04
or to install one of the HWE (HardWare Enablement) kernels into the
12.04 system (this would be one of the kernels from a later release of
Ubuntu provided in the 12.04 repositories).

12.04 supports 3.8.0 directly. There's a site on putting 3.10.17 or so
on it as well I found by googling for it. You need 3.10+ if you wanna
play with bcache which is how I found it. But you don't need to jump
through any hoops to get 3.8.0 on 12.04.4 LTS

Or wait <checks watch> 8 days for14.04 LTS with kernel 3.14.

Cheers,
Steve

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Not a great help with which Linux to run, nor Postgres focused, but may be of interest, & very relevant to the subject line..

Given the likely respective numbers of each OS actually out there, I'd suggests BSD is very over-represented in the high uptime list which is suggestive.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/perf/reports/performance/Hosters?orderby=epercent

Cheers,

Brent Wood

Brent Wood
Principal Technician - GIS and Spatial Data Management
Programme Leader - Environmental Information Delivery
+64-4-386-0529 | 301 Evans Bay Parade, Greta Point, Wellington | www.niwa.co.nz<http://www.niwa.co.nz&gt;
[NIWA]<http://www.niwa.co.nz&gt;
________________________________________
From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] on behalf of Fran?ois Beausoleil [francois@teksol.info]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:36 AM
To: Bruce Momjian
Cc: Christofer C. Bell; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Linux vs FreeBSD

Le 2014-04-09 ? 16:20, Bruce Momjian a ?crit :

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:02:07AM -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

This highlights a more fundamental problem of the difference between a
workstation-based on OS like Ubuntu and a server-based one like Debian
or FreeBSD. I know Ubuntu has a "server" version, but fundamentally
Ubuntu's selection of kernels and feature churn make it less than ideal
for server deployments.

I am sure someone can post that they use Ubuntu just fine for server
deployments, but I continue to feel that Ubuntu is chosen by
administrators because it an OS they are familiar with on workstations,
rather than it being the best choice for servers.

I'm not a full-time sysadmin. I chose Ubuntu because I have familiarity with it, and because installing Puppet on it installed the certificates and everything I needed to get going. I tried Debian, but I had to fight and find the correct procedures to install the Puppet certificates and all. Ubuntu saved me some time back then.

Cheers!
Fran?ois

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Steve Atkins <steve@blighty.com> wrote:

On Apr 9, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Christofer C. Bell
<christofer.c.bell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, François Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

$ uname -a
Linux munn.ca.seevibes.com 3.2.0-58-generic #88-Ubuntu SMP Tue Dec 3 17:37:58 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

From the research I've done online, this is likely your issue. Kernel
3.2.0 has some issues that directly and severely impact I/O wait times
for PostgreSQL. The suggested fixes (that seem to have worked for
most people reporting in) are to revert the OS to Ubuntu Server 10.04
or to install one of the HWE (HardWare Enablement) kernels into the
12.04 system (this would be one of the kernels from a later release of
Ubuntu provided in the 12.04 repositories).

12.04 supports 3.8.0 directly. There's a site on putting 3.10.17 or so
on it as well I found by googling for it. You need 3.10+ if you wanna
play with bcache which is how I found it. But you don't need to jump
through any hoops to get 3.8.0 on 12.04.4 LTS

Or wait <checks watch> 8 days for14.04 LTS with kernel 3.14.

I'm not deploying any new distro version that soon. :) I know folks
just putting 12.04 into prod to replace etch and lenny. :)
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On 04/09/14 14:46, Scott Marlowe wrote:

I'm not deploying any new distro version that soon. :) I know folks
just putting 12.04 into prod to replace etch and lenny. :)

You can easily get the 3.11.0 kernel on 12.04.4 LTS by installing
the linux-generic-lts-saucy package. IIRC, the fix for the iowait
issue was committed into 3.9.x but the first Ubuntu kernel that
appeared with the fix was the one for 'saucy'.

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On Wednesday, April 09, 2014 09:02:02 PM Brent Wood wrote:

Given the likely respective numbers of each OS actually out there, I'd
suggests BSD is very over-represented in the high uptime list which is
suggestive.

Suggestive of ... sysadmins who don't do kernel updates?

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On 4 April 2014 11:03, François Beausoleil <francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Does PG perform that much better on FreeBSD? I have some performance issues on a Ubuntu 12.04 which I'd like to resolve. iowait varies a lot, between 5 and 50%. Does FreeBSD better schedule I/O, which could alleviate some of the issues, or not at all? I have no experience administering FreeBSD, but I'm willing to learn if I'll get some performance enhancements out of the switch.

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is being released in a few days and you might have
more success with its newer kernel. And try different schedulers if
you haven't already - IIRC switching to deadline resolved one of our
load problems.

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http://www.stuartbishop.net/

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On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 3:36 PM, François Beausoleil
<francois@teksol.info> wrote:

Le 2014-04-09 à 16:20, Bruce Momjian a écrit :

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:02:07AM -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

This highlights a more fundamental problem of the difference between a
workstation-based on OS like Ubuntu and a server-based one like Debian
or FreeBSD. I know Ubuntu has a "server" version, but fundamentally
Ubuntu's selection of kernels and feature churn make it less than ideal
for server deployments.

I am sure someone can post that they use Ubuntu just fine for server
deployments, but I continue to feel that Ubuntu is chosen by
administrators because it an OS they are familiar with on workstations,
rather than it being the best choice for servers.

I'm not a full-time sysadmin. I chose Ubuntu because I have familiarity with
it, and because installing Puppet on it installed the certificates and
everything I needed to get going. I tried Debian, but I had to fight and
find the correct procedures to install the Puppet certificates and all.
Ubuntu saved me some time back then.

Cheers!
François

I'm not wanting to get after anyone here, but I want it on the record
that I am not the source of the above quote discouraging the use of
Ubuntu in a server role. That would be Bruce Momjian. While Bruce is
entitled to his opinion, it's not one I agree with and I don't want a
Google search years from now to tie my name to that viewpoint.

Thanks!

--
Chris

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent
the Universe." -- Carl Sagan

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On 04/10/14 17:25, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

I'm not wanting to get after anyone here, but I want it on the record
that I am not the source of the above quote discouraging the use of
Ubuntu in a server role. That would be Bruce Momjian. While Bruce is
entitled to his opinion, it's not one I agree with and I don't want a
Google search years from now to tie my name to that viewpoint.

Who (in their right mind) would ever think of anything but BSD in a
server role?

<shaking head>

Jan

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