Performance PLV8 vs PLPGSQL
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.
Is this uniformly true or is it just in certain circumstances?
Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
Is there work going on to make PL-PGSQL more performant or has it gotten
significantly faster in the last two years or so (some of the links are a
from a while ago).
Thanks.
Hi
2016-12-28 10:15 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.Is this uniformly true or is it just in certain circumstances?
It depends on usage
Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
there are more benefits
0. this language has integrated SQL - the code with lot of SQL is more
readable.
1. it is everywhere, where is Postgres
2. it uses same data types like Postgres, there is not any conversion
related overhead
3. this engine has quick start, faster than anything else.
Is there work going on to make PL-PGSQL more performant or has it gotten
significantly faster in the last two years or so (some of the links are a
from a while ago).
What I know no. There is not any reason why to do it. This language is
designed be glue of SQL statements. Nothing more, nothing less. I did
tests, and it is significantly faster than SQL engine.
Some years ago I though about compilation to C language, but the target was
better obfuscation not performance.
PLpgSQL is not designed for hard calculation - the critical path is in SQL
always. If you need different performance, than you can use PLV8, PLPython
or native C extension. Postgres has very good API for writing C extensions.
Regards
Pavel
Show quoted text
Thanks.
2016-12-28 10:46 GMT+01:00 Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com>:
Hi
2016-12-28 10:15 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.Is this uniformly true or is it just in certain circumstances?
It depends on usage
Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
there are more benefits
0. this language has integrated SQL - the code with lot of SQL is more
readable.
1. it is everywhere, where is Postgres
2. it uses same data types like Postgres, there is not any conversion
related overhead
3. this engine has quick start, faster than anything else.
4. It is not slow language - it is AST interpret - it is significantly
faster than byte code based interpreter without JIT. The expression are
slower - the PostgerSQL expression interpret. This is bottle neck of
PLpgSQL performance - on second hand - it is main benefit of PLpgSQL -
there is full integration with PostgreSQL runtime without any exceptions.
Years ago PLpgSQL has very slow operations on arrays - this was fixed in
9.5. Still PLpgSQL has slow string updates - Strings are immutable in
PLpgSQL - so update means generating new string. But usually it is not
bottleneck in PL environment.
Regards
Pavel
Show quoted text
Is there work going on to make PL-PGSQL more performant or has it gotten
significantly faster in the last two years or so (some of the links are a
from a while ago).What I know no. There is not any reason why to do it. This language is
designed be glue of SQL statements. Nothing more, nothing less. I did
tests, and it is significantly faster than SQL engine.Some years ago I though about compilation to C language, but the target
was better obfuscation not performance.PLpgSQL is not designed for hard calculation - the critical path is in SQL
always. If you need different performance, than you can use PLV8, PLPython
or native C extension. Postgres has very good API for writing C extensions.Regards
Pavel
Thanks.
From: Tim Uckun
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.
Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
------------------------
I can’t speak to PLV8. However, I can speak to plpgsql, and specifically stored functions (procs). I use it exclusively to create a database API for real-time web applications to hit. My API calls (procs) are hitting large tables, sometimes doing complex logic within the sproc. It allows me to provide a simple, standardized interface to the web devs, allowing them to focus on the app code work.
Performance is superb and continues to surprise me (I came from the SQL Server world). As others have mentioned, the natural lashup of plpgsql to postgres (I liked Alban’s term, “impedance”), is a key aspect. Also:
- stored procs provide another security layer against sql injection attacks.
- Caching SEEMS to be more efficient/effective with stored procs (that could be wishful thinking too).
- Stored procs allow skilled sql practitioners to provide far more sophisticated sql solutions than the typical python developer is capable of…my experience is that most web devs don’t really understand databases (or even care about them – they are a necessary evil), so providing a pure encapsulated sql solution (via stored procs) removes that mental impedance mismatch.
- Performance? Simple “get” procs that return data for a specific indexed query against larger tables (50m+ rows) in a few milliseconds…I can live with that kind of performance.
- I’m also doing some heavy lifting in the sql, calculating histograms and boxplots for data visualizations. This is an unusual scenario, but the other option is sending a massive chunk of data to another server for processing – just the transit time would kill the deal. I am mindful that at a certain point, there won’t be enough memory and i/o to go around, but the web app is a low user count/high user task complexity app, so I’ve tailored the model to match.
Mike Sofen (Synthetic Genomics)
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:02:51 AM EST Mike Sofen wrote:
the natural lashup of plpgsql to postgres (I liked Alban’s term,
“impedance”), is a key aspect.
Not to deprive Alban of any of his credit, but the term "impedance mismatch"
is at least 25 year old; as far as I know it was coined to describe the
problems arising from attempting to shoehorn an OO model onto a relational
database.
And despite the smart people in academia warning us about that mismatch in the
early 90s, we bravely soldiered (I'm taking full blame myself here) on and
10-15 years later came up with abominations like Hibernate...
History lesson over, carry on...
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On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Jan de Visser <jan@de-visser.net> wrote:
.....but the term "impedance mismatch"
is at least 25 year old;
Much older, I was told it in class at least 32 years ago.
as far as I know it was coined
_Borrowed_ from electrical engineering / communication techs.
It is used to highlight how signals 'bounce' at the points of a
transmision path where impedances do not match. It extrapolates the
fact that if you have a battery with an internal resistance R the way
to extract the maximum energy on a load is for it to match the
impedance, be R too. Higher load impedance and the fraction of energy
in the load goes up, the total down. Lower load impedance and the
fraction in the load goes down, the total up. In either case absolute
power in the load goes down. Match the impedance and the energy in the
load is the maximum ( and equal to the internal loss in the battery ).
The term has been used in radio texts since the dawn of ( radio ) times.
It's used a lot as a similar problem appears when mixing to different
technology, each time you cross the barrier you loose something, or
hit a problem.
And despite the smart people in academia warning us about that mismatch in the
early 90s, we bravely soldiered (I'm taking full blame myself here) on and
10-15 years later came up with abominations like Hibernate...
History lesson over, carry on...
I think that goes together with "everyone can be a programmer" and
"every Java ( a language with several apparent concessions made to
people who did not even understand objects, like String.format, and
targeted to enable "everyone" to do OO ) coder can do databases".
Well, rant mode off. Today is "dia de los Inocentes", spanish version
of April Fools I was tempted to write something about different
impedances in the copper tracks used for DB data traffic when entering
the CPU silicon interconnects via golden cables.
Francisco Olarte.
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I am not doubting the efficacy of stored procs, just wondering which
language is better. From the sound of it string manupilation is slow in
PL-PGSQL but looking at my procs there does seem to be a lot of string
manipulation going on so maybe I better do some tests.
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Mike Sofen <msofen@runbox.com> wrote:
Show quoted text
*From:* Tim Uckun
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
------------------------
I can’t speak to PLV8. However, I can speak to plpgsql, and specifically
stored functions (procs). I use it exclusively to create a database API
for real-time web applications to hit. My API calls (procs) are hitting
large tables, sometimes doing complex logic within the sproc. It allows me
to provide a simple, standardized interface to the web devs, allowing them
to focus on the app code work.Performance is superb and continues to surprise me (I came from the SQL
Server world). As others have mentioned, the natural lashup of plpgsql to
postgres (I liked Alban’s term, “impedance”), is a key aspect. Also:- stored procs provide another security layer against sql
injection attacks.- Caching SEEMS to be more efficient/effective with stored procs
(that could be wishful thinking too).- Stored procs allow skilled sql practitioners to provide far more
sophisticated sql solutions than the typical python developer is capable
of…my experience is that most web devs don’t really understand databases
(or even care about them – they are a necessary evil), so providing a pure
encapsulated sql solution (via stored procs) removes that mental impedance
mismatch.- Performance? Simple “get” procs that return data for a specific
indexed query against larger tables (50m+ rows) in a few milliseconds…I can
live with that kind of performance.- I’m also doing some heavy lifting in the sql, calculating
histograms and boxplots for data visualizations. This is an unusual
scenario, but the other option is sending a massive chunk of data to
another server for processing – just the transit time would kill the deal.
I am mindful that at a certain point, there won’t be enough memory and i/o
to go around, but the web app is a low user count/high user task complexity
app, so I’ve tailored the model to match.Mike Sofen (Synthetic Genomics)
My recommendation. See them as tools in a toolkit, not a question of what
is best.
For places where you have SQL statements as primary do SQL or PLPGSQL
functions.
For places where you are manipulating values (parsing strings for example)
use something else (I usually use pl/perl for string manipulation but ymmv).
PLPGSQL works best where you have a large query and some procedurally
supporting logic. It becomes a lot less usable, performant, and
maintainable the further you get away from that.
So there is no best just different tools in a toolkit.
2016-12-29 9:23 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
I am not doubting the efficacy of stored procs, just wondering which
language is better. From the sound of it string manupilation is slow in
PL-PGSQL but looking at my procs there does seem to be a lot of string
manipulation going on so maybe I better do some tests.
It is interesting, what string operations you are doing in stored
procedures?
Regards
Pavel
Show quoted text
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Mike Sofen <msofen@runbox.com> wrote:
*From:* Tim Uckun
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
------------------------
I can’t speak to PLV8. However, I can speak to plpgsql, and specifically
stored functions (procs). I use it exclusively to create a database API
for real-time web applications to hit. My API calls (procs) are hitting
large tables, sometimes doing complex logic within the sproc. It allows me
to provide a simple, standardized interface to the web devs, allowing them
to focus on the app code work.Performance is superb and continues to surprise me (I came from the SQL
Server world). As others have mentioned, the natural lashup of plpgsql to
postgres (I liked Alban’s term, “impedance”), is a key aspect. Also:- stored procs provide another security layer against sql
injection attacks.- Caching SEEMS to be more efficient/effective with stored procs
(that could be wishful thinking too).- Stored procs allow skilled sql practitioners to provide far
more sophisticated sql solutions than the typical python developer is
capable of…my experience is that most web devs don’t really understand
databases (or even care about them – they are a necessary evil), so
providing a pure encapsulated sql solution (via stored procs) removes that
mental impedance mismatch.- Performance? Simple “get” procs that return data for a
specific indexed query against larger tables (50m+ rows) in a few
milliseconds…I can live with that kind of performance.- I’m also doing some heavy lifting in the sql, calculating
histograms and boxplots for data visualizations. This is an unusual
scenario, but the other option is sending a massive chunk of data to
another server for processing – just the transit time would kill the deal.
I am mindful that at a certain point, there won’t be enough memory and i/o
to go around, but the web app is a low user count/high user task complexity
app, so I’ve tailored the model to match.Mike Sofen (Synthetic Genomics)
I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment and one
that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be nice if more
languages were delivered in the default package especially lua, V8 and
mruby.
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Chris Travers <chris.travers@gmail.com>
wrote:
Show quoted text
My recommendation. See them as tools in a toolkit, not a question of what
is best.For places where you have SQL statements as primary do SQL or PLPGSQL
functions.For places where you are manipulating values (parsing strings for example)
use something else (I usually use pl/perl for string manipulation but ymmv).PLPGSQL works best where you have a large query and some procedurally
supporting logic. It becomes a lot less usable, performant, and
maintainable the further you get away from that.So there is no best just different tools in a toolkit.
Mostly generating SQL statements to execute. Like for example deciding
which partition to insert into.
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com>
wrote:
Show quoted text
2016-12-29 9:23 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
I am not doubting the efficacy of stored procs, just wondering which
language is better. From the sound of it string manupilation is slow in
PL-PGSQL but looking at my procs there does seem to be a lot of string
manipulation going on so maybe I better do some tests.It is interesting, what string operations you are doing in stored
procedures?Regards
Pavel
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Mike Sofen <msofen@runbox.com> wrote:
*From:* Tim Uckun
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
------------------------
I can’t speak to PLV8. However, I can speak to plpgsql, and
specifically stored functions (procs). I use it exclusively to create a
database API for real-time web applications to hit. My API calls (procs)
are hitting large tables, sometimes doing complex logic within the sproc.
It allows me to provide a simple, standardized interface to the web devs,
allowing them to focus on the app code work.Performance is superb and continues to surprise me (I came from the SQL
Server world). As others have mentioned, the natural lashup of plpgsql to
postgres (I liked Alban’s term, “impedance”), is a key aspect. Also:- stored procs provide another security layer against sql
injection attacks.- Caching SEEMS to be more efficient/effective with stored procs
(that could be wishful thinking too).- Stored procs allow skilled sql practitioners to provide far
more sophisticated sql solutions than the typical python developer is
capable of…my experience is that most web devs don’t really understand
databases (or even care about them – they are a necessary evil), so
providing a pure encapsulated sql solution (via stored procs) removes that
mental impedance mismatch.- Performance? Simple “get” procs that return data for a
specific indexed query against larger tables (50m+ rows) in a few
milliseconds…I can live with that kind of performance.- I’m also doing some heavy lifting in the sql, calculating
histograms and boxplots for data visualizations. This is an unusual
scenario, but the other option is sending a massive chunk of data to
another server for processing – just the transit time would kill the deal.
I am mindful that at a certain point, there won’t be enough memory and i/o
to go around, but the web app is a low user count/high user task complexity
app, so I’ve tailored the model to match.Mike Sofen (Synthetic Genomics)
2016-12-29 10:04 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
Mostly generating SQL statements to execute. Like for example deciding
which partition to insert into.
Then you don't find any possible performance difference - the query is
about 10-100x slower than expression - so the plpgsql should be good.
More you can use a "format" function - implemented in C.
Regards
Pavel
Show quoted text
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com>
wrote:2016-12-29 9:23 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
I am not doubting the efficacy of stored procs, just wondering which
language is better. From the sound of it string manupilation is slow in
PL-PGSQL but looking at my procs there does seem to be a lot of string
manipulation going on so maybe I better do some tests.It is interesting, what string operations you are doing in stored
procedures?Regards
Pavel
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Mike Sofen <msofen@runbox.com> wrote:
*From:* Tim Uckun
I have seen various links on the internet which indicate that PLV8 is
significantly faster than PL-PGSQL sometimes an order of magnitude faster.Is there any benefit to choosing PL-PGSQL?
------------------------
I can’t speak to PLV8. However, I can speak to plpgsql, and
specifically stored functions (procs). I use it exclusively to create a
database API for real-time web applications to hit. My API calls (procs)
are hitting large tables, sometimes doing complex logic within the sproc.
It allows me to provide a simple, standardized interface to the web devs,
allowing them to focus on the app code work.Performance is superb and continues to surprise me (I came from the SQL
Server world). As others have mentioned, the natural lashup of plpgsql to
postgres (I liked Alban’s term, “impedance”), is a key aspect. Also:- stored procs provide another security layer against sql
injection attacks.- Caching SEEMS to be more efficient/effective with stored
procs (that could be wishful thinking too).- Stored procs allow skilled sql practitioners to provide far
more sophisticated sql solutions than the typical python developer is
capable of…my experience is that most web devs don’t really understand
databases (or even care about them – they are a necessary evil), so
providing a pure encapsulated sql solution (via stored procs) removes that
mental impedance mismatch.- Performance? Simple “get” procs that return data for a
specific indexed query against larger tables (50m+ rows) in a few
milliseconds…I can live with that kind of performance.- I’m also doing some heavy lifting in the sql, calculating
histograms and boxplots for data visualizations. This is an unusual
scenario, but the other option is sending a massive chunk of data to
another server for processing – just the transit time would kill the deal.
I am mindful that at a certain point, there won’t be enough memory and i/o
to go around, but the web app is a low user count/high user task complexity
app, so I’ve tailored the model to match.Mike Sofen (Synthetic Genomics)
2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com>:
I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment and one
that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be nice if more
languages were delivered in the default package especially lua, V8 and
mruby.
It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people who
has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people who can
do some work are welcome.
The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast knows
about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on PostgreSQL
development cycle, and development can be faster.
Regards
Pavel
Show quoted text
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Chris Travers <chris.travers@gmail.com>
wrote:My recommendation. See them as tools in a toolkit, not a question of
what is best.For places where you have SQL statements as primary do SQL or PLPGSQL
functions.For places where you are manipulating values (parsing strings for
example) use something else (I usually use pl/perl for string manipulation
but ymmv).PLPGSQL works best where you have a large query and some procedurally
supporting logic. It becomes a lot less usable, performant, and
maintainable the further you get away from that.So there is no best just different tools in a toolkit.
On 12/29/2016 10:35 AM, Pavel Stehule wrote:
2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com
<mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>>:I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment
and one that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be
nice if more languages were delivered in the default package
especially lua, V8 and mruby.It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people
who has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people
who can do some work are welcome.The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast
knows about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on
PostgreSQL development cycle, and development can be faster.
I'll add my 2 cents.
Postgresql and in general SQL are about integrity and coherency.
Checking coherency is much easier with strict data type.
PL/PGSQL gives you that, JS is far far away from that.
Postgresql is a very flexible database and you can stretch it to do
"MEAN like"[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle) stuff but that's going to increase your "impedance mismatch".
If you think there is some space for JS in your application stack that's
nearer to the client rather than to the DB.
Or possibly you need to do "MEAN like" stuff but you don't want to
install another "database".
As other said using stored procedures is a two edged sword.
It can decouple DB schema from the application or it can increase the
coupling.
Choosing JS for performance in the stored procedure realm is going to
encourage coupling and make scalability harder and it is going to become
a mess when you'll need to refactor.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle)
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http://www.webthatworks.it http://www.borgonovo.net
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On 29/12/16 09:12, Francisco Olarte wrote:
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Jan de Visser <jan@de-visser.net> wrote:
.....but the term "impedance mismatch"
is at least 25 year old;Much older, I was told it in class at least 32 years ago.
as far as I know it was coined
_Borrowed_ from electrical engineering / communication techs.
It is used to highlight how signals 'bounce' at the points of a
transmision path where impedances do not match. It extrapolates the
fact that if you have a battery with an internal resistance R the way
to extract the maximum energy on a load is for it to match the
impedance, be R too. Higher load impedance and the fraction of energy
in the load goes up, the total down. Lower load impedance and the
fraction in the load goes down, the total up. In either case absolute
power in the load goes down. Match the impedance and the energy in the
load is the maximum ( and equal to the internal loss in the battery ).
[...]
From my distant memory of studying AC stuff at University many moons ago...
You want the two impedances to be complex conjugates of each other (this
means the MAGNITUDES will be equal) - which means the phase change
should be equal & opposite, and the resistance to match.
Cheers,
Gavin
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Honestly I don't even like JS. Having said that I am not too crazy about
PL-PGSQL either. I am willing to put up with either given that they are
supported widely in default installs of postgres in AWS, Linux and MacOSX,
As I said before, I think posgres gives a unique and underutilized language
platform. You can code in different languages, it has a good variety of
built in types, and of course you get persistance and caching built in!
Using DBLINK you might even be able to separate out your code from the bulk
of your data in another database. Postgres all the way down!
It's fun to play around with. There is a lot of missing pieces though. A
good IDE like thing would be good, version control would be nice, deeper
namespacing (hierarchical schemas?), easier testing etc would go a long
way.
Thanks for all the input guys!
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <
mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
Show quoted text
On 12/29/2016 10:35 AM, Pavel Stehule wrote:
2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com
<mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>>:
I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment
and one that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be
nice if more languages were delivered in the default package
especially lua, V8 and mruby.It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people
who has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people
who can do some work are welcome.The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast
knows about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on
PostgreSQL development cycle, and development can be faster.I'll add my 2 cents.
Postgresql and in general SQL are about integrity and coherency.
Checking coherency is much easier with strict data type.
PL/PGSQL gives you that, JS is far far away from that.Postgresql is a very flexible database and you can stretch it to do "MEAN
like"[1] stuff but that's going to increase your "impedance mismatch".If you think there is some space for JS in your application stack that's
nearer to the client rather than to the DB.
Or possibly you need to do "MEAN like" stuff but you don't want to install
another "database".As other said using stored procedures is a two edged sword.
It can decouple DB schema from the application or it can increase the
coupling.
Choosing JS for performance in the stored procedure realm is going to
encourage coupling and make scalability harder and it is going to become a
mess when you'll need to refactor.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle)
--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it http://www.borgonovo.net--
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I would hope Postgres core folk take no more than a nanosecond to reject the idea that they work on an IDE. Focus on reading and writing faster and faster ACID all the while.
Show quoted text
On Dec 29, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com> wrote:
Honestly I don't even like JS. Having said that I am not too crazy about PL-PGSQL either. I am willing to put up with either given that they are supported widely in default installs of postgres in AWS, Linux and MacOSX,
As I said before, I think posgres gives a unique and underutilized language platform. You can code in different languages, it has a good variety of built in types, and of course you get persistance and caching built in! Using DBLINK you might even be able to separate out your code from the bulk of your data in another database. Postgres all the way down!
It's fun to play around with. There is a lot of missing pieces though. A good IDE like thing would be good, version control would be nice, deeper namespacing (hierarchical schemas?), easier testing etc would go a long way.
Thanks for all the input guys!
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On 12/29/2016 10:35 AM, Pavel Stehule wrote:2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com
<mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>>:I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment
and one that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be
nice if more languages were delivered in the default package
especially lua, V8 and mruby.It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people
who has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people
who can do some work are welcome.The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast
knows about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on
PostgreSQL development cycle, and development can be faster.I'll add my 2 cents.
Postgresql and in general SQL are about integrity and coherency.
Checking coherency is much easier with strict data type.
PL/PGSQL gives you that, JS is far far away from that.Postgresql is a very flexible database and you can stretch it to do "MEAN like"[1] stuff but that's going to increase your "impedance mismatch".
If you think there is some space for JS in your application stack that's nearer to the client rather than to the DB.
Or possibly you need to do "MEAN like" stuff but you don't want to install another "database".As other said using stored procedures is a two edged sword.
It can decouple DB schema from the application or it can increase the coupling.
Choosing JS for performance in the stored procedure realm is going to encourage coupling and make scalability harder and it is going to become a mess when you'll need to refactor.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle)
--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it http://www.borgonovo.net--
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I am not saying the postgres core people should work on an IDE, just that
an IDE like thing would be nice.
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com> wrote:
Show quoted text
I would hope Postgres core folk take no more than a nanosecond to reject
the idea that they work on an IDE. Focus on reading and writing faster and
faster ACID all the while.On Dec 29, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com> wrote:
Honestly I don't even like JS. Having said that I am not too crazy about
PL-PGSQL either. I am willing to put up with either given that they are
supported widely in default installs of postgres in AWS, Linux and MacOSX,As I said before, I think posgres gives a unique and underutilized
language platform. You can code in different languages, it has a good
variety of built in types, and of course you get persistance and caching
built in! Using DBLINK you might even be able to separate out your code
from the bulk of your data in another database. Postgres all the way down!It's fun to play around with. There is a lot of missing pieces though. A
good IDE like thing would be good, version control would be nice, deeper
namespacing (hierarchical schemas?), easier testing etc would go a long
way.Thanks for all the input guys!
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <
mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:On 12/29/2016 10:35 AM, Pavel Stehule wrote:
2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com
<mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>>:
I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment
and one that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be
nice if more languages were delivered in the default package
especially lua, V8 and mruby.It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people
who has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people
who can do some work are welcome.The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast
knows about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on
PostgreSQL development cycle, and development can be faster.I'll add my 2 cents.
Postgresql and in general SQL are about integrity and coherency.
Checking coherency is much easier with strict data type.
PL/PGSQL gives you that, JS is far far away from that.Postgresql is a very flexible database and you can stretch it to do "MEAN
like"[1] stuff but that's going to increase your "impedance mismatch".If you think there is some space for JS in your application stack that's
nearer to the client rather than to the DB.
Or possibly you need to do "MEAN like" stuff but you don't want to
install another "database".As other said using stored procedures is a two edged sword.
It can decouple DB schema from the application or it can increase the
coupling.
Choosing JS for performance in the stored procedure realm is going to
encourage coupling and make scalability harder and it is going to become a
mess when you'll need to refactor.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle)
--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it http://www.borgonovo.net--
Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
If you want an IDE, Jetbrains, the makers of great IDEs like IntelliJ, PyCharm. and AppCode, among others, have recently come out with what is arguably the BEST IDE for DBAs, DataGrip. It runs on most major platforms, and is so good that I have bitten the bullet and paid the yearly subscription for it.
Leave the Postgres core alone focus on what they do best, and that is making the very BEST database environment that can be had at any price, period. Is Postgres perfect? No, not at all. But no other group is so focused on performance, scalability and security as these folks are. And the rate of development, enhancement and continual improvement is, quite honestly, astounding.
So here is my hat tip to the Postgres team for an awesome job they are doing!
Show quoted text
On Dec 29, 2016, at 7:19 PM, Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not saying the postgres core people should work on an IDE, just that an IDE like thing would be nice.
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com <mailto:robjsargent@gmail.com>> wrote:
I would hope Postgres core folk take no more than a nanosecond to reject the idea that they work on an IDE. Focus on reading and writing faster and faster ACID all the while.On Dec 29, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com <mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>> wrote:
Honestly I don't even like JS. Having said that I am not too crazy about PL-PGSQL either. I am willing to put up with either given that they are supported widely in default installs of postgres in AWS, Linux and MacOSX,
As I said before, I think posgres gives a unique and underutilized language platform. You can code in different languages, it has a good variety of built in types, and of course you get persistance and caching built in! Using DBLINK you might even be able to separate out your code from the bulk of your data in another database. Postgres all the way down!
It's fun to play around with. There is a lot of missing pieces though. A good IDE like thing would be good, version control would be nice, deeper namespacing (hierarchical schemas?), easier testing etc would go a long way.
Thanks for all the input guys!
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it <mailto:mail@webthatworks.it>> wrote:
On 12/29/2016 10:35 AM, Pavel Stehule wrote:2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com <mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>
<mailto:timuckun@gmail.com <mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>>>:I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment
and one that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be
nice if more languages were delivered in the default package
especially lua, V8 and mruby.It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people
who has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people
who can do some work are welcome.The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast
knows about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on
PostgreSQL development cycle, and development can be faster.I'll add my 2 cents.
Postgresql and in general SQL are about integrity and coherency.
Checking coherency is much easier with strict data type.
PL/PGSQL gives you that, JS is far far away from that.Postgresql is a very flexible database and you can stretch it to do "MEAN like"[1] stuff but that's going to increase your "impedance mismatch".
If you think there is some space for JS in your application stack that's nearer to the client rather than to the DB.
Or possibly you need to do "MEAN like" stuff but you don't want to install another "database".As other said using stored procedures is a two edged sword.
It can decouple DB schema from the application or it can increase the coupling.
Choosing JS for performance in the stored procedure realm is going to encourage coupling and make scalability harder and it is going to become a mess when you'll need to refactor.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle)>
--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it <http://www.webthatworks.it/> http://www.borgonovo.net <http://www.borgonovo.net/>--
Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org <mailto:pgsql-general@postgresql.org>)
To make changes to your subscription:
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I have datagrip and it's OK but it doesn't really do everything I want.
I don't understand why it doesn't fetch all objects from the database and
then put them into the disk in a directory so I can put it all under git
and then let me work on them syncing the files back as they change. For
example today I just renamed a function. It didn't refactor properly by
identifying stored procs that reference it. If I was using another
jetbrains IDE it would have built an index of the project files and did a
proper refactor.
This would also allow you to make wholesale disk changes and then sync them
up properly to get around postgres dependency issues.
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Michael Sheaver <msheaver@me.com> wrote:
Show quoted text
If you want an IDE, Jetbrains, the makers of great IDEs like IntelliJ,
PyCharm. and AppCode, among others, have recently come out with what is
arguably the BEST IDE for DBAs, DataGrip. It runs on most major platforms,
and is so good that I have bitten the bullet and paid the yearly
subscription for it.Leave the Postgres core alone focus on what they do best, and that is
making the very BEST database environment that can be had at any price,
period. Is Postgres perfect? No, not at all. But no other group is so
focused on performance, scalability and security as these folks are. And
the rate of development, enhancement and continual improvement is, quite
honestly, astounding.So here is my hat tip to the Postgres team for an awesome job they are
doing!On Dec 29, 2016, at 7:19 PM, Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not saying the postgres core people should work on an IDE, just that
an IDE like thing would be nice.On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com>
wrote:I would hope Postgres core folk take no more than a nanosecond to reject
the idea that they work on an IDE. Focus on reading and writing faster and
faster ACID all the while.On Dec 29, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com> wrote:
Honestly I don't even like JS. Having said that I am not too crazy about
PL-PGSQL either. I am willing to put up with either given that they are
supported widely in default installs of postgres in AWS, Linux and MacOSX,As I said before, I think posgres gives a unique and underutilized
language platform. You can code in different languages, it has a good
variety of built in types, and of course you get persistance and caching
built in! Using DBLINK you might even be able to separate out your code
from the bulk of your data in another database. Postgres all the way down!It's fun to play around with. There is a lot of missing pieces though. A
good IDE like thing would be good, version control would be nice, deeper
namespacing (hierarchical schemas?), easier testing etc would go a long
way.Thanks for all the input guys!
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <
mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:On 12/29/2016 10:35 AM, Pavel Stehule wrote:
2016-12-29 10:03 GMT+01:00 Tim Uckun <timuckun@gmail.com
<mailto:timuckun@gmail.com>>:
I think it's awesome that postgres allows you to code in different
languages like this. It really is a unique development environment
and one that is overlooked as a development platform. It would be
nice if more languages were delivered in the default package
especially lua, V8 and mruby.It is about dependencies and maintenance. There are not too much people
who has good experience with C embedding Lua, V8 and others. Any people
who can do some work are welcome.The living outside main package has disadvantages - only enthusiast
knows about it, but some advantages too - you are not fixed on
PostgreSQL development cycle, and development can be faster.I'll add my 2 cents.
Postgresql and in general SQL are about integrity and coherency.
Checking coherency is much easier with strict data type.
PL/PGSQL gives you that, JS is far far away from that.Postgresql is a very flexible database and you can stretch it to do
"MEAN like"[1] stuff but that's going to increase your "impedance mismatch".If you think there is some space for JS in your application stack that's
nearer to the client rather than to the DB.
Or possibly you need to do "MEAN like" stuff but you don't want to
install another "database".As other said using stored procedures is a two edged sword.
It can decouple DB schema from the application or it can increase the
coupling.
Choosing JS for performance in the stored procedure realm is going to
encourage coupling and make scalability harder and it is going to become a
mess when you'll need to refactor.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEAN_(software_bundle)
--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it http://www.borgonovo.net--
Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
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