pl/pgsql outside the DB, (i.e. on the terminal) possible ?

Am Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 04:56:18PM +0200 schrieb Achilleas Mantzios - cloud:

Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich,

Python _is_ powerful but it needn't be difficult.

weird indentation rules

A matter of taste IMO.

no simple for loop

Really ?

Python 3.11.2 (main, Mar 13 2023, 12:18:29) [GCC 12.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

for idx in [0,1,2,3]: print(idx)

...
0
1
2
3

Karsten
--
GPG 40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6 5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the database, and create and run functions and procedures as much as you like.

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a different and much more complex problem. PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much anything that is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database. I doubt it would be worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to operate without PostgreSQL.

čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com>
napsal:

On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <

a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:

So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal
already: just use psql, connect to the database, and create and run
functions and procedures as much as you like.

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL
interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a different and much more complex
problem. PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run
pretty much anything that is not a control structure, and the language is
very focused on interacting with the database. I doubt it would be worth
anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that
implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to operate without PostgreSQL.

yes

plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced
interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler supports Ada language.

I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret with
Ada syntax, but it is better to learn Python - it is easy - with a pretty
big library.

free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can write
terminal applications too - with Turbo Vision

Regards

Pavel

On 3/7/24 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud wrote:

Hello

I notice both my kids struggling with either C or Python as first
programming languages. I believe both are unsuitable for use as
introductory languages to college juniors.

What the cool kids are using:)?

https://www.rust-lang.org/

https://doc.rust-lang.org/rust-by-example/

This old non-professional programmer could see learning this, so young
minds should be able to grasp it.

Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich, weird indentation rules, no
simple for loop etc.

C, ok, punishing little kids with segmentation faults, calling by value
VS by reference and 3ple pointers is pure sadism.

So this brings me to memory good old PASCAL from the time I was junior,
circa 1986. PL/SQL resembles PASCAL heavily. Everything seems well
defined, strong typing, simplicity, I think it has everything a
programming language should have in order to be taught as an
introductory language. But it lacks IO and file handling.

So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Thanks!

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On 7 Mar 2024, at 4:56 PM, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:

Hello

I notice both my kids struggling with either C or Python as first programming languages. I believe both are unsuitable for use as introductory languages to college juniors.

https://scratch.mit.edu/ would be more suitable, maybe ?

Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich, weird indentation rules, no simple for loop etc.

C, ok, punishing little kids with segmentation faults, calling by value VS by reference and 3ple pointers is pure sadism.

So this brings me to memory good old PASCAL from the time I was junior, circa 1986. PL/SQL resembles PASCAL heavily. Everything seems well defined, strong typing, simplicity, I think it has everything a programming language should have in order to be taught as an introductory language. But it lacks IO and file handling.

So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Imho the best you can do is bash + psql + pl/pgsql , via heredocs .
pql <<EOF
<pgsql code.
EOF
It does require lot’s of care with variables though https://www.depesz.com/2023/05/28/variables-in-psql-how-to-use-them/

But one can get fairly creative.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 11:26 AM Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com> wrote:

čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com> napsal:

On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the database, and create and run functions and procedures as much as you like.

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a different and much more complex problem. PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much anything that is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database. I doubt it would be worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to operate without PostgreSQL.

yes

plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler supports Ada language.

I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret with Ada syntax, but it is better to learn Python - it is easy - with a pretty big library.

free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can write terminal applications too - with Turbo Vision

Of course there's a certain amount of personal preference with all
this stuff. I started with basic and really liked it, and then had to
learn pascal and hated it so much that I decided to eschew programming
for years. If you are just trying to learn for fun, I see no reason
why SQL, paired with data in a database, wouldn't be worth spending
time on. Once you're comfortable with that, I like ruby on the command
line and it interacts nicely with databases, and also works well
within the rails console. That said, my son liked lua when he was a
kid, so yeah, there's lots of options, even if plpgsql on the command
line isn't strictly one of them.

Robert Treat
https://xzilla.net

Στις 7/3/24 17:13, ο/η Karsten Hilbert έγραψε:

Am Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 04:56:18PM +0200 schrieb Achilleas Mantzios - cloud:

Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich,

Python _is_ powerful but it needn't be difficult.

weird indentation rules

A matter of taste IMO.

no simple for loop

Really ?

Python 3.11.2 (main, Mar 13 2023, 12:18:29) [GCC 12.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

for idx in [0,1,2,3]: print(idx)

Dude this is like saying that for n=N the statement itself takes O(N) to
write, this is not only "not-simple", this is a darn anti-pattern , that
should be avoided at any cost in 1st year of college.

...
0
1
2
3

Karsten
--
GPG 40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6 5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

--
Achilleas Mantzios
IT DEV - HEAD
IT DEPT
Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

Στις 7/3/24 18:25, ο/η Pavel Stehule έγραψε:

čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com>
napsal:

On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud

<a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:

So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the

terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the
terminal already: just use psql, connect to the database, and
create and run functions and procedures as much as you like.

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a
PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a different and
much more complex problem.  PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query
execution machinery to run pretty much anything that is not a
control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting
with the database. I doubt it would be worth anyone's time to try
to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to
allow PL/pgSQL to operate without PostgreSQL.

yes

plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced
interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler supports Ada language.

I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret
with Ada syntax, but it is better to learn Python - it is easy - with
a pretty big library.

Cool, thank you.

free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can
write terminal applications too - with Turbo Vision

Too bad, PASCAL is now neglected by most UNIs :(

Regards

Pavel

--
Achilleas Mantzios
IT DEV - HEAD
IT DEPT
Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 11:26 AM Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com> wrote:

čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com> napsal:

On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the database, and create and run functions and procedures as much as you like.

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a different and much more complex problem. PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much anything that is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database. I doubt it would be worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to operate without PostgreSQL.

yes

plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler supports Ada language.

I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret with Ada syntax, but it is better to learn Python - it is easy - with a pretty big library.

free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can write terminal applications too - with Turbo Vision

Of course there's a certain amount of personal preference with all
this stuff. I started with basic and really liked it, and then had to
learn pascal and hated it so much that I decided to eschew programming
for years. If you are just trying to learn for fun, I see no reason
why SQL, paired with data in a database, wouldn't be worth spending
time on. Once you're comfortable with that, I like ruby on the command
line and it interacts nicely with databases, and also works well
within the rails console. That said, my son liked lua when he was a
kid, so yeah, there's lots of options, even if plpgsql on the command

I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers of
this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the classes
seems so wrong in every aspect.

What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?

line isn't strictly one of them.

Robert Treat
https://xzilla.net

--
Achilleas Mantzios
IT DEV - HEAD
IT DEPT
Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

Am Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:04:21PM +0200 schrieb Achilleas Mantzios:

Python 3.11.2 (main, Mar 13 2023, 12:18:29) [GCC 12.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

for idx in [0,1,2,3]: print(idx)

Dude this is like saying that for n=N the statement itself takes O(N) to write

You do realize this is a conceptual example ...

that should be avoided at any cost
in 1st year of college.

.. which I'd fully expect to be teachable to 1st year of
college folks ?

However, let's refrain from discussing that _here_.

Thanks,
Karsten
--
GPG 40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6 5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

On 3/7/24 10:13, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:

Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:

I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers of
this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the classes
seems so wrong in every aspect.

Seems to me you need to tackle this from the other end, that is what are
you looking for in a first language?

What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?

line isn't strictly one of them.

Robert Treat
https://xzilla.net

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

Στις 7/3/24 21:29, ο/η Adrian Klaver έγραψε:

On 3/7/24 10:13, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:

Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:

I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers
of this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the
classes seems so wrong in every aspect.

Seems to me you need to tackle this from the other end, that is what
are you looking for in a first language?

Something like good ol Pascal, just a little more market-correct to make
it viable. Something that puts sanity and simplicity above impression or
anything else. C or Python as first languages (like seems the norm among
UNIs) is suicidal. I am strongly against it. Kids just dont learn the
essentials. And the path goes like , simple -> lower lever (C/Assembly)
, but also higher level (C++/Java/Python/etc). Destroying their minds by
starting with Python or C just minimizes the chances for future great C
programmers or Java/Python programmers.

Ppl from the community already expressed to me the shortage of new ppl
willing to write system level (linux/postgersql) C code. And nothing is
accidental.

What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?

line isn't strictly one of them.

Robert Treat
https://xzilla.net

--
Achilleas Mantzios
IT DEV - HEAD
IT DEPT
Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

On 3/7/24 12:20, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:

Στις 7/3/24 21:29, ο/η Adrian Klaver έγραψε:

On 3/7/24 10:13, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:

Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:

I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers
of this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the
classes seems so wrong in every aspect.

Seems to me you need to tackle this from the other end, that is what
are you looking for in a first language?

Something like good ol Pascal, just a little more market-correct to make
it viable. Something that puts sanity and simplicity above impression or
anything else. C or Python as first languages (like seems the norm among
UNIs) is suicidal. I am strongly against it. Kids just dont learn the
essentials. And the path goes like , simple -> lower lever (C/Assembly)
, but also higher level (C++/Java/Python/etc). Destroying their minds by
starting with Python or C just minimizes the chances for future great C
programmers or Java/Python programmers.

Would that not be covered by a theory of programing course series?

I will admit up front this is getting out of my depth, but from my
experiences with programming languages they, at a high level, all do the
same thing basically. Transform text into low level operations on a
machine. Therefore course work on what those low level operations are
and the way to abstract above the machine code level would seem to me
the way to go. Then a series of classes that move languages from lower
to higher level.

Ppl from the community already expressed to me the shortage of new ppl
willing to write system level (linux/postgersql) C code. And nothing is
accidental.

What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?

line isn't strictly one of them.

Robert Treat
https://xzilla.net

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com