"an SQL" vs. "a SQL"

On 10.06.21 09:26, David Rowley wrote:

It seems we have no standard as to if we say "a SQL" or "an SQL".

The SQL standard uses "an SQL-something".

However, we mostly use "an SQL" in the docs.

~/pg_src$ cd doc/
~/pg_src/doc$ git grep -E "\s(a|A)\sSQL\s" | wc -l
55
~/pg_src/doc$ git grep -E "\s(an|An)\sSQL\s" | wc -l
94

I think we should change all 55 instances of "a SQL" in the docs to
use "an SQL" and leave the 800 other instances of "a SQL" alone.
Changing those does not seem worthwhile as it could cause
back-patching pain.

agreed

Further, there might be a few more in the docs that we might want to
consider changing:

git grep -E "\sa\s(A|E|F|H|I|L|M|N|O|S|X)[A-Z]{2,5}\s"

I see "a FSM", "a FIFO", "a SSPI", "a SASL", "a MCV", "a SHA", "a SQLDA"

My regex foo is not strong enough to think how I might find multiline instances.

Um, of those, I pronounce FIFO, SASL, and SHA as words, with an "a" article.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 9:31 AM Peter Eisentraut <
peter.eisentraut@enterprisedb.com> wrote:

On 10.06.21 09:26, David Rowley wrote:

It seems we have no standard as to if we say "a SQL" or "an SQL".

The SQL standard uses "an SQL-something".

I use both commonly, but the argument for "an S-Q-L ..." is strong I think
- and I definitely think consistency is good.

However, we mostly use "an SQL" in the docs.

~/pg_src$ cd doc/
~/pg_src/doc$ git grep -E "\s(a|A)\sSQL\s" | wc -l
55
~/pg_src/doc$ git grep -E "\s(an|An)\sSQL\s" | wc -l
94

I think we should change all 55 instances of "a SQL" in the docs to
use "an SQL" and leave the 800 other instances of "a SQL" alone.
Changing those does not seem worthwhile as it could cause
back-patching pain.

agreed

+1 in general, though I would perhaps suggest extending to any user-visible
messages in the code. I don't think there's any point in messing with
comments etc. I'm not sure what that would do to the numbers though.

Further, there might be a few more in the docs that we might want to
consider changing:

git grep -E "\sa\s(A|E|F|H|I|L|M|N|O|S|X)[A-Z]{2,5}\s"

I see "a FSM", "a FIFO", "a SSPI", "a SASL", "a MCV", "a SHA", "a SQLDA"

My regex foo is not strong enough to think how I might find multiline

instances.

Um, of those, I pronounce FIFO, SASL, and SHA as words, with an "a"
article.

Same here. I've never heard anyone try to pronounce SSPI, so I would expect
that to be "an SSPI ...". The other remaining ones (FSM, MCV & SQLDA) I
would also argue aren't pronounceable, so should use the "an" article.

--
Dave Page
Blog: https://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com

On 10 Jun 2021, at 10:54, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:

.. I would perhaps suggest extending to any user-visible messages in the code.

I agree, consistent language between docs and user-facing messages is
important.

--
Daniel Gustafsson https://vmware.com/

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 at 20:58, Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se> wrote:

On 10 Jun 2021, at 10:54, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:

.. I would perhaps suggest extending to any user-visible messages in the code.

I agree, consistent language between docs and user-facing messages is
important.

Yeah, agreed.

I came up with the attached patch.

The only additional abbreviation that I found to be incorrect that I'd
previously not mentioned was "SRF". I changed that to use "an".

I only found 4 error messages that needed to be updated. There's some
incorrect stuff remaining in a few README files which I couldn't
decide if I should update or not.

Most of the offenders away from the docs are the translator hint
comments and within the .po files themselves.

$ git grep -E "translator:.*(a|A)\sSQL" | wc -l
690

Only 816 instances of "a SQL" remain, so only 126 are not related to
translator hints or .po files.

Does anyone have any thoughts if the READMEs should be fixed up?

David

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 1:27 AM David Rowley <dgrowleyml@gmail.com> wrote:

I think we should change all 55 instances of "a SQL" in the docs to
use "an SQL" and leave the 800 other instances of "a SQL" alone.

+1

Consistency is good.

Roberto

On 2021-Jun-10, David Rowley wrote:

I thought it might be worth having this conversation before we branch for v15.

It seems we have no standard as to if we say "a SQL" or "an SQL".

I was just reading the standard a couple of days ago and happened to
notice that the standard itself in some places uses "a SQL" and in other
places "an SQL". I didn't stop to make an analysis of that, so I don't
know how prevalent each form is -- I just giggled and moved on.

My regex foo is not strong enough to think how I might find multiline instances.

This catches some of these:

ag "\sa[\s*]*\n[\s*]*(A|E|F|H|I|L|M|N|O|S|X)[A-Z]{2,5}\s"

You get a bunch of "a NULL" or "a NOT" and so on, but here's a few valid ones:

contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:316: * crosstab - create a crosstab of rowids and values columns from a
contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:317: * SQL statement returning one rowid column, one category column,

contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:607: * crosstab - create a crosstab of rowids and values columns from a
contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:608: * SQL statement returning one rowid column, one category column,

doc/src/sgml/plpgsql.sgml
1127: The result of a
1128: SQL command yielding a single row (possibly of multiple

src/backend/catalog/pg_subscription.c:438: * translator: first %s is a SQL ALTER command and second %s is a
src/backend/catalog/pg_subscription.c:439: * SQL DROP command

src/backend/replication/logical/logical.c:126: * 1) We need to be able to correctly and quickly identify the timeline a
src/backend/replication/logical/logical.c:127: * LSN belongs to

src/backend/libpq/auth.c:847: * has. If it's an MD5 hash, we must do MD5 authentication, and if it's a
src/backend/libpq/auth.c:848: * SCRAM secret, we must do SCRAM authentication.

--
�lvaro Herrera Valdivia, Chile

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 02:04, David Rowley <dgrowleyml@gmail.com> wrote:

I came up with the attached patch.

Further searching using:

git grep -E "\s(an|An)\s(F|H|L|M|N|S|X)[A-Z]{2,5}"

(i.e vowel sounding, but not actually starting with a vowel then
manually looking for pronounceable ones.)

-  by a response from client in an SASLResponse message. The particulars of
+  by a response from client in a SASLResponse message. The particulars of

-     An SHA1 hash of the random prefix and data is appended.
+     A SHA1 hash of the random prefix and data is appended.

-       requires an MIT Kerberos installation and opens TCP/IP listen sockets.
+       requires a MIT Kerberos installation and opens TCP/IP listen sockets.

I think all of these should use "a" rather than "an".

David

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 at 10:43, David Rowley <dgrowleyml@gmail.com> wrote:

-       requires an MIT Kerberos installation and opens TCP/IP listen
sockets.
+       requires a MIT Kerberos installation and opens TCP/IP listen
sockets.

I think all of these should use "a" rather than "an".

“A MIT …”? As far as I know it is pronounced M - I - T, which would imply
that it should use “an”. The following page seems believable and is pretty
unequivocal on the issue:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 02:35, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> wrote:

On 2021-Jun-10, David Rowley wrote:

My regex foo is not strong enough to think how I might find multiline instances.

This catches some of these:

ag "\sa[\s*]*\n[\s*]*(A|E|F|H|I|L|M|N|O|S|X)[A-Z]{2,5}\s"

Thanks. I ended up using -C 1 and manually checking the previous line.

You get a bunch of "a NULL" or "a NOT" and so on, but here's a few valid ones:

contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:316: * crosstab - create a crosstab of rowids and values columns from a
contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:317: * SQL statement returning one rowid column, one category column,

contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:607: * crosstab - create a crosstab of rowids and values columns from a
contrib/tablefunc/tablefunc.c:608: * SQL statement returning one rowid column, one category column,

doc/src/sgml/plpgsql.sgml
1127: The result of a
1128: SQL command yielding a single row (possibly of multiple

src/backend/catalog/pg_subscription.c:438: * translator: first %s is a SQL ALTER command and second %s is a
src/backend/catalog/pg_subscription.c:439: * SQL DROP command

src/backend/replication/logical/logical.c:126: * 1) We need to be able to correctly and quickly identify the timeline a
src/backend/replication/logical/logical.c:127: * LSN belongs to

src/backend/libpq/auth.c:847: * has. If it's an MD5 hash, we must do MD5 authentication, and if it's a
src/backend/libpq/auth.c:848: * SCRAM secret, we must do SCRAM authentication.

Thanks. I've left all the .c file comments alone for no and looks like
I got the doc/src/sgml/plpgsql.sgml one already.

David

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:

On 2021-Jun-10, David Rowley wrote:

It seems we have no standard as to if we say "a SQL" or "an SQL".

I was just reading the standard a couple of days ago and happened to
notice that the standard itself in some places uses "a SQL" and in other
places "an SQL". I didn't stop to make an analysis of that, so I don't
know how prevalent each form is -- I just giggled and moved on.

Indeed. I think this is entirely pointless; there's zero hope that
any consistency you might establish right now will persist very long.
The largest effect of this proposed patch will be to create
back-patching headaches.

regards, tom lane

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 02:53, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:

Indeed. I think this is entirely pointless; there's zero hope that
any consistency you might establish right now will persist very long.
The largest effect of this proposed patch will be to create
back-patching headaches.

hmm. Yet we do have other standards which we do manage to maintain.

I did limit the scope to just the docs and error messages. My thoughts
were that someone fudging a backpatch on the docs seems less likely to
cause a nuclear meltdown than someone doing the same in .c code.

David

David Rowley <dgrowleyml@gmail.com> writes:

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 02:53, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:

Indeed. I think this is entirely pointless; there's zero hope that
any consistency you might establish right now will persist very long.

hmm. Yet we do have other standards which we do manage to maintain.

If there were some semblance of an overall consensus on the spelling,
I'd be fine with weeding out the stragglers. But when the existing
usages are only about 2-to-1 in one direction or the other, I feel
quite confident in predicting that incoming patches are often going
to get this wrong. Especially so if the convention you want to
establish in the docs is contrary to the majority usage in the code
comments --- how is that not going to confuse people?

regards, tom lane

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 03:24, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:

If there were some semblance of an overall consensus on the spelling,
I'd be fine with weeding out the stragglers. But when the existing
usages are only about 2-to-1 in one direction or the other, I feel
quite confident in predicting that incoming patches are often going
to get this wrong.

I'm pretty sure you're right and we will get some inconsistencies
creeping back in. I'm not really sure why you think that will be hard
to fix though. If we catch them soon enough then we won't need to
worry about causing future backpatching pain.

Especially so if the convention you want to
establish in the docs is contrary to the majority usage in the code
comments --- how is that not going to confuse people?

Why would someone go and gawk at code comments to clear up their
confusion about what they should write in the docs? I think any sane
person that's looking for inspiration would look at the docs first.

I really think it's worth the trouble here to be consistent in our
public-facing documents. When I read [1]http://patorjk.com/blog/2012/01/26/pronouncing-sql-s-q-l-or-sequel/ earlier and the blog started
talking about Oracle documentation using sequel consistently before
going on to talk about MySQL's documentation, I started to get a bit
worried that the author might mention something about our lack of
consistency. I was glad to see they missed us out of that. However,
maybe that's because we are inconsistent.

If you really feel that strongly about not changing this then I can
drop this. However, I'll likely growl every time I see "a SQL" in the
docs from now on.

David

[1]: http://patorjk.com/blog/2012/01/26/pronouncing-sql-s-q-l-or-sequel/

David Rowley <dgrowleyml@gmail.com> writes:

If you really feel that strongly about not changing this then I can
drop this. However, I'll likely growl every time I see "a SQL" in the
docs from now on.

[ shrug... ] I'm not going to stand in your way. However, I'm also
unlikely to worry about this point when copy-editing docs.

regards, tom lane

On 11/06/21 2:48 am, Isaac Morland wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 at 10:43, David Rowley <dgrowleyml@gmail.com
<mailto:dgrowleyml@gmail.com>> wrote:

-      requires an MIT Kerberos installation and opens TCP/IP
listen sockets.
+       requires a MIT Kerberos installation and opens TCP/IP
listen sockets.

I think all of these should use "a" rather than "an".

“A MIT …”? As far as I know it is pronounced M - I - T, which would
imply that it should use “an”. The following page seems believable and
is pretty unequivocal on the issue:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/
<https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/&gt;

The rule is, in English, is that if the word sounds like it starts with
a vowel then use 'an' rather than 'a'.  Though some people think that
the rule only applies to words beginning with a vowel, which is a
misunderstanding.

So 'an SQL' and 'an MIT'  are correct.   IMHO

Cheers,
Gavin

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 at 16:11, Gavin Flower <GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz>
wrote:

On 11/06/21 2:48 am, Isaac Morland wrote:

“A MIT …”? As far as I know it is pronounced M - I - T, which would
imply that it should use “an”. The following page seems believable and
is pretty unequivocal on the issue:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/
<https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/&gt;

The rule is, in English, is that if the word sounds like it starts with
a vowel then use 'an' rather than 'a'. Though some people think that
the rule only applies to words beginning with a vowel, which is a
misunderstanding.

So 'an SQL' and 'an MIT' are correct. IMHO

Right, spelling is irrelevant, it's about whether the word begins with a
vowel *sound*. Or so I've always understood and I'm pretty sure if you
listen to what people actually say that's what you'll generally hear. So "A
uranium mine" not "An uranium mine" since "uranium" begins with a "y-"
sound just like "yesterday". The fact that "u" is a vowel is irrelevant.
But then there is "an historic occasion" so go figure.

On 11/06/21 8:17 am, Isaac Morland wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 at 16:11, Gavin Flower
<GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz <mailto:GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz>>
wrote:

On 11/06/21 2:48 am, Isaac Morland wrote:

“A MIT …”? As far as I know it is pronounced M - I - T, which would
imply that it should use “an”. The following page seems

believable and

is pretty unequivocal on the issue:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/

<https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/&gt;

<https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/

<https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/como_se_dice/&gt;&gt;

The rule is, in English, is that if the word sounds like it starts
with
a vowel then use 'an' rather than 'a'.  Though some people think that
the rule only applies to words beginning with a vowel, which is a
misunderstanding.

So 'an SQL' and 'an MIT'  are correct.   IMHO

Right, spelling is irrelevant, it's about whether the word begins with
a vowel *sound*. Or so I've always understood and I'm pretty sure if
you listen to what people actually say that's what you'll generally
hear. So "A uranium mine" not "An uranium mine" since "uranium" begins
with a "y-" sound just like "yesterday". The fact that "u" is a vowel
is irrelevant. But then there is "an historic occasion" so go figure.

The 'h' in 'historic' is silent, at least it used to be -- I think now
it is almost silent.  So using 'an historic occasion' is correct.

Gavin Flower <GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz> writes:

On 11/06/21 8:17 am, Isaac Morland wrote:

... But then there is "an historic occasion" so go figure.

The 'h' in 'historic' is silent, at least it used to be -- I think now
it is almost silent. So using 'an historic occasion' is correct.

It's silent according to the Brits, I believe. In America, the
pronunciation varies.

regards, tom lane

On 6/10/21 5:32 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Gavin Flower <GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz> writes:

On 11/06/21 8:17 am, Isaac Morland wrote:

... But then there is "an historic occasion" so go figure.

The 'h' in 'historic' is silent, at least it used to be -- I think now
it is almost silent. So using 'an historic occasion' is correct.

It's silent according to the Brits, I believe. In America, the
pronunciation varies.

I suspect "an historic" is bordering on archaic even in the UK these days.

cheers

andrew

--
Andrew Dunstan
EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com