BUG #5012: mailing list VERP addresses not sender-verifiable

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Gergely
Czuczy<gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu> wrote:

The following bug has been logged online:

Bug reference:      5012
Logged by:          Gergely Czuczy
Email address:      gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu
PostgreSQL version: 8.4
Operating system:   FreeBSD
Description:        mailing list VERP addresses not sender-verifiable
Details:

This is not a Postgres bug. I would say to please use an appropriate
channel but, uh, our mailing list maintainers don't really have a good
channel for reporting such problems :(

In any case you should disable SAV. It is well documented to cause
such problems and is likely to get you banned if you use it on a site
which receives any significant amount of email from one place (such as
Postgres lists!).

c.f.

http://taint.org/2007/03/16/134743a.html
http://www.circleid.com/posts/sender_address_verification/

Fwiw the addresses used in the VERP are not blocked, they're
greylisted. I suspect that is a mistake and they shouldn't be but
there's nothing inherently wrong with it the way it is and your SAV
implementation is just broken. Arguably the very concept of SAV is
broken though.

--
greg
http://mit.edu/~gsstark/resume.pdf

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

The mailing lists are using VERP, but the sender address verifications are
failing for these addresses, therefore sender address verification-enabled
MTAs are unable to receive mails from the lists.

We require that addresses subscribed to the list do not have ugly sender
address verification mechanisms, yes.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

Hello,

okey, i've removed the check for postgresql.org.

OTOH, may I ask how does VERP work at all for the mailing list, if the
returning mails are not handled? Just interested.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:43:17 +0100
Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Gergely
Czuczy<gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu> wrote:

The following bug has been logged online:

Bug reference:      5012
Logged by:          Gergely Czuczy
Email address:      gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu
PostgreSQL version: 8.4
Operating system:   FreeBSD
Description:        mailing list VERP addresses not
sender-verifiable Details:

This is not a Postgres bug. I would say to please use an appropriate
channel but, uh, our mailing list maintainers don't really have a good
channel for reporting such problems :(

In any case you should disable SAV. It is well documented to cause
such problems and is likely to get you banned if you use it on a site
which receives any significant amount of email from one place (such as
Postgres lists!).

c.f.

http://taint.org/2007/03/16/134743a.html
http://www.circleid.com/posts/sender_address_verification/

Fwiw the addresses used in the VERP are not blocked, they're
greylisted. I suspect that is a mistake and they shouldn't be but
there's nothing inherently wrong with it the way it is and your SAV
implementation is just broken. Arguably the very concept of SAV is
broken though.

--
Üdvözlettel / Sincerely,
Gergely CZUCZY

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

Hello,

okey, i've removed the check for postgresql.org.

OTOH, may I ask how does VERP work at all for the mailing list, if the
returning mails are not handled? Just interested.

It works reasonably well. What do you mean by "returning mails are not
handled"?

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for <pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>: response
to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:54:49 -0400
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

Hello,

okey, i've removed the check for postgresql.org.

OTOH, may I ask how does VERP work at all for the mailing list, if
the returning mails are not handled? Just interested.

It works reasonably well. What do you mean by "returning mails are
not handled"?

--
Üdvözlettel / Sincerely,
Gergely CZUCZY

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for <pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>: response
to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

Huh, I guess this was broken recently, because it's been working. I'll
ask the sysadmin team.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

Thanks. and sorry for using this form of reporting, but by not being
able to use the MLs, filling a bugreport form seemed to be the best way
to communicate this.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:04:57 -0400
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP
address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
response to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

Huh, I guess this was broken recently, because it's been working.
I'll ask the sysadmin team.

--
Üdvözlettel / Sincerely,
Gergely CZUCZY

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

Thanks. and sorry for using this form of reporting, but by not being
able to use the MLs, filling a bugreport form seemed to be the best way
to communicate this.

Yeah, it's OK, don't worry about it.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 21:04, Alvaro Herrera<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for <pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>: response
to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

Huh, I guess this was broken recently, because it's been working.  I'll
ask the sysadmin team.

That's not maintained by the sysadmin team. You need to ask hub.org.

--
Magnus Hagander
Me: http://www.hagander.net/
Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 21:04, Alvaro Herrera<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

Gergely Czuczy wrote:

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for <pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>: response
to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

Huh, I guess this was broken recently, because it's been working. �I'll
ask the sysadmin team.

That's not maintained by the sysadmin team. You need to ask hub.org.

I know that very well, which is why I emailed Marc Fournier. The PG
sysadmin team was also copied because they need to be aware of the
issue.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Gergely
Czuczy<gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu> wrote:

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for <pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>: response
to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

That's odd. When I tested it I got a 450 greylist. That causes the
mailer to hold the email and then resend again later. My email didn't
have the "=foo=bar.baz" component though, just +M0000.

--
greg
http://mit.edu/~gsstark/resume.pdf

Greg Stark wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Gergely
Czuczy<gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu> wrote:

AFAIK exim generates a bounce to test the address, and for that I'm
getting a reject saying that the user is unknown for the VERP address.

Aug 26 04:02:05 hostname exim[70819]: H=mx1.hub.org
[200.46.208.106] sender verify fail for <pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>: response
to "RCPT
TO:<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>"
from mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.106] was: 550 5.1.1
<pgsql-announce-owner+M1580=phoemix=harmless.hu@postgresql.org>:
Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table

That's odd. When I tested it I got a 450 greylist. That causes the
mailer to hold the email and then resend again later. My email didn't
have the "=foo=bar.baz" component though, just +M0000.

I got a 450 greylist on mx2.hub.org but a hard error on mx1.hub.org.
Which one did you try? Note that there's also maia-1.hub.org or
something like that. I'm not sure what's each server; weird crap from
hub.org I guess. I tried an address without the =foo=bar.baz part too;
I think Majordomo uses different patterns depending on whether the
sender is subscribed, or something like that; but they should both work.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

The frustrating thing about this, is that we complain over and over, and
hub.org email setup keeps breaking every so often. We need to thank
Marc very much for his hosting effort during all this time since he
first set things up back in 1996/7, but we also need to be looking
around for plausible alternatives. I know it's difficult to run a
complex email setup, but if the work was shared among the PG sysadmin
team instead of being Marc only, things would flow more easily.

I know I'm going to get spanked for saying this :-(

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvherre/
"I dream about dreams about dreams", sang the nightingale
under the pale moon (Sandman)

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Alvaro Herrera<alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> wrote:

The frustrating thing about this, is that we complain over and over, and
hub.org email setup keeps breaking every so often.

The problem is not that it keeps breaking -- that's normal. The
problem is that it breaks and he's not aware because he's not here.
You can't maintain stuff that you aren't actively using, at least not
unless you have a whole support organization.

--
greg
http://mit.edu/~gsstark/resume.pdf