Fast Forward (fwd)

On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:17:15AM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After
chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself.
...
Where do you get your info? Do you just make it up? PostgreSQL is
not a product of Great Bridge and never has been. It's 100% independant.
Is Linux a keyword you figure you can use to draw readers? Won't take
long before folks determine you're full of it. The PostgreSQL team takes
great pride (not to be confused with great bridge) in ensuring that the
work we do runs on ALL platforms; be it Mac's OSX, FreeBSD 4.3, or even
Windows 2000. So why do you figure this is a Great Bridge product? Why
do you figure it's Linux only? What is it with you writers lately? Are
you getting lazy and simply using Linux as a quick out for a paycheck?

This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_
_possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers
will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates are
rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are dangerous
to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her editor will
treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the future.
When they have to mention it, their reporting will be colored by their
personal experience. They (and their readers) don't run the code,
so they must get their impressions from those who do.

Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many
are both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about
it is like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their
job is to regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no
time to learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even
to check facts.

None of the errors in the article matter. Nobody will develop an
enduring impression of PG from them. What matters is that PG is being
mentioned in the same article with Oracle. In her limited way, she
did the PG community the biggest favor in her limited power, and all
we can do is attack?

It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who
wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her. Thank her
graciously for making an effort, and offer to help her check her
facts next time. PostgreSQL needs friends in the press, even if
they are ignorant or lazy. It doesn't need any enemies in the press.

Nathan Myers
ncm@zembu.com

On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Nathan Myers wrote:

This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_
_possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers
will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates
are rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are

favorable attention??

dangerous to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her
editor will treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the
future.

woo hoo, if that is the result, then I think Vince did us a great service,
not dis-service ...

Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many are
both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about it is
like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their job is to
regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no time to
learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even to check
facts.

Out of all the articles on PgSQL that I've read over the years, this one
should have been shot before it hit the paper (so to say) ... it was the
most blatantly inaccurate article I've ever read ...

It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who
wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her.

In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the
wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl
that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it
works, or of its history :(

To top it all off, their comments are broken -- I submitted mine and it
displays Marc's again (until you click on the link of course)..

*sigh* they must be using MySQL. :-)

-Mitch

----- Original Message -----
From: "The Hermit Hacker" <scrappy@hub.org>
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Fast Forward (fwd)

*sigh* they must be using MySQL. :-)

*rofl*

Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After
chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself.

Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also
insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather
disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not
already done so.

I haven't had time to read the article. Easter weekend, ya know.

Not sure how corrections are made to on-line articles, but I would think
the publisher would be glad to fix what is wrong.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After
chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself.

Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also
insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather
disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not
already done so.

One more thing. This is a minor media outlet, so I don't get too worked
up to fix it right away. I assume no one is there on the weekend
anyway. If it was a major distributor of information, I would be more
inclined to get it fixed rapidly.

I did skim the article, but did not read it. When I don't recognize the
publisher, I have a tendency to just ignore PostgreSQL press.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who
wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her.

In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the
wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl
that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it
works, or of its history :(

This echos my earlier observation. Many of these writers for minor
publications just throw the information together. I can't be bothered
to jump every time tney make a major mistake because they have not done
any work on their part to get the correct story.

Not that it shouldn't be fixed. I just don't get worked up over it.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 11:44:48AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Nathan Myers wrote:

This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_
_possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers
will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates
are rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are

favorable attention??

Yes, totally favorable. There wasn't a hint of the condescension
typically accorded free software. All of the details you find so
objectionable (April vs. June? "The" marketing arm vs. "a" marketing
arm?) would not even be noticed by a non-cultist.

dangerous to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her
editor will treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the
future.

woo hoo, if that is the result, then I think Vince did us a great service,
not dis-service ...

False.

This may have been the reporter's and the editor's first direct
exposure to free software advocates. You guys came across as
hate-filled religious whackos, and that reflects on all of us.

Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many are
both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about it is
like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their job is to
regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no time to
learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even to check
facts.

Out of all the articles on PgSQL that I've read over the years, this one
should have been shot before it hit the paper (so to say) ... it was the
most blatantly inaccurate article I've ever read ...

It had a number of minor errors, easily corrected. The next will
probably talk about what a bunch of nasty cranks and lunatics
PostgreSQL fans are, unless you who wrote can display a lot more
finesse in your apologies. Thanks a lot, guys.

It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who
wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her.

In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the
wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl
that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it
works, or of its history :(

How is this reporter going to have developed contacts within the
community? She has just started. Now you've burnt her to a crisp,
and she will figure the less contact with that "community" she has,
the happier she'll be. Her editor will know that mentioning PG in
any context will result in a raft of hate mail from cranks, and will
treat press releases from our community with the scorn they have earned.

Reporters are fragile creatures, and must be gently guided toward the
light. They will always get facts wrong, but that matter not at all.
The overall tone of the writing is the only thing that stays with their
equally dim audience. That dim audience controls the budgets for
technology deployment, including databases. Next time you propose a
deployment on PG instead of Oracle, thank Vince et al. when it's
dismissed as a crank toy.

Finally, their talkback page was most probably implemented _not_ with
MySQL, but with MS SQL Server. These intramural squabbles (between
MySQL and PG, between Linux and BSD, between NetBSD and OpenBSD) are
justifiably seen as pathetic in the outside world. Respectful attention
among projects doesn't just create a better impression, it also allows
you, maybe, to learn something. (MySQL is not objectively as good as
PG, but those guys are doing something right, in their presentation,
that some of us could learn from.)

Nathan Myers
ncm@zembu.com

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Not that it shouldn't be fixed. I just don't get worked up over it.

Well, in a way I regret bringing it to the attention of the community --
just in a small way.

But at the same time I realized that I was not the right one at that
time to craft a reply -- after all, I'm a Baptist preacher. And we tend
towards the 'getting worked up' side of things. So I've learned that
there are times I shouldn't post at all. Although, that's been a long
hard learning experience, one that I am still, to use my wife's
charitable words, 'gaining mastery of.'

It should be fixed. But community members need a levelheaded response
to a likely honest omission of facts. I may very well do so, tomorrow.
One of the worst facets of the Linux community, for example, is its
often predatoryform of 'advocacy' -- this group is more civil than that,
IMHO.

She likely is off for the weekend, and hasn't read any responses yet.
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After
chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself.

Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also
insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather
disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not
already done so.

OK, I read the article. Seems there are two major mistakes. First,
they equate Great Bridge with PostgreSQL, and second, they don't know
the history of PostgreSQL.

If they fixed those two mistakes, the article would be OK. Seems like
they have already been contacted and hopefully they will correct this.
(Not sure how they do that.)

In reading the article, I have to ask myself, "How upset would I be if
they had equated PostgreSQL, Inc or another company with PostgreSQL?"
Well, I certainly wouldn't like it, and would try to get it corrected.
However, I wouldn't consider it a major problem. The press makes
mistakes like this all the time, and this press outlet is just too small
to worry about.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

the thing that pissed me off the most, and set me off, was the totally
blatant errors ... we've had other articles written, with a GB slant to
them, that didn't get my feathers in a ruffle ... the fact that they
*talked* with GB, got quotes from them and some of their partners, and
*still* got the facts wrong, is what got me heated ...

On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After
chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself.

Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also
insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather
disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not
already done so.

OK, I read the article. Seems there are two major mistakes. First,
they equate Great Bridge with PostgreSQL, and second, they don't know
the history of PostgreSQL.

If they fixed those two mistakes, the article would be OK. Seems like
they have already been contacted and hopefully they will correct this.
(Not sure how they do that.)

In reading the article, I have to ask myself, "How upset would I be if
they had equated PostgreSQL, Inc or another company with PostgreSQL?"
Well, I certainly wouldn't like it, and would try to get it corrected.
However, I wouldn't consider it a major problem. The press makes
mistakes like this all the time, and this press outlet is just too small
to worry about.

--
Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
+  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
+  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?

http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl

Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Not that it shouldn't be fixed. I just don't get worked up over it.

Well, in a way I regret bringing it to the attention of the community --
just in a small way.

But at the same time I realized that I was not the right one at that
time to craft a reply -- after all, I'm a Baptist preacher. And we tend
towards the 'getting worked up' side of things. So I've learned that
there are times I shouldn't post at all. Although, that's been a long
hard learning experience, one that I am still, to use my wife's
charitable words, 'gaining mastery of.'

Funny you should mention this, because I was going to post something
about this today too.

Some people have wondered why I don't comment on some postings that
obviously relate to me. I avoid rapidly replying to topics that attack
me, my employer, my religious beliefs, or other things that are
personally related to me. The reason is that my entering the discussion
may prevent people from openly expressing their opinions on the topic,
and that is usually bad.

Whether I agree with their opinions or not, they are valid feelings
people have. In a way, all feelings are valid. If someone feels a
certain way, you can't argue they don't feel that way, because obviously
they do.

You can tell people why they shouldn't feel a certain way, but
preventing them from expressing their feelings is usually a bad thing,
unless their expression is hurting other people. (Hurting my feelings
is OK.)

I usually sit back until everyone's cards/feelings are on the table, and
then decide if my saying anything will help or hurt.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

I wanted to comment on how we handled this article.

Seems the author did not understand the company/open-source
relationship. This is not a huge surprise. I have to explain it to my
friends and relatives all the time. Now, our way of dealing with users
who ask questions is to gently lead them to the answer. In this case,
we have insulted the author. Hard to see how our users get gentle
treatment while authors get insulted.

Now, you can say that press people have to live up to a higher standard,
and therefore deserve to be insulted when they get things wrong. If
that is people's opinion, I can't argue with that. However, consider
how many press people think Linux is developed by Red Hat. I bet
there's a lot.

The author didn't get the Berkely/FreeBSD/PostgreSQL relationship right
either. Seems the author has a "relationship" problem. :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

You can tell people why they shouldn't feel a certain way, but
preventing them from expressing their feelings is usually a bad thing,
unless their expression is hurting other people. (Hurting my feelings
is OK.)

I usually sit back until everyone's cards/feelings are on the table, and
then decide if my saying anything will help or hurt.

Oh, one more thing. I jump right into discussions if I can find a joke
in the situation. :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html -- Trond Eivind Glomsr�d Red Hat, Inc.: All 76 tests passed.

I'll submit it to the website soonish.

[1]: Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html -- Trond Eivind Glomsr�d Red Hat, Inc.
--
Trond Eivind Glomsr�d
Red Hat, Inc.

Trond Eivind Glomsr�d wrote:

PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]: All 76 tests passed.

I'll submit it to the website soonish.

[1] Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html

And RPMs are also available for 7.1 on 7.1 in our RPM area.

Red Hat 7.1 is _nice_. The PostgreSQL speed appears to be very good,
compared to 6.2/7.0 with the 2.2 kernel.
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

teg@redhat.com (Trond Eivind Glomsr�d) writes:

PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]: All 76 tests passed.

I'll submit it to the website soonish.

[1] Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html

I've not been able to submit it - the URL
http://www.postgresql.org/~vev/regress/ (which is referred to from the developer pages) results in a 404.

--
Trond Eivind Glomsr�d
Red Hat, Inc.