PostgreSQL License

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Ashkar Dev wrote:

Can anyone explain the PostgreSQL License to me?
Can I create a database with it and sell the database also preventing
the buyer from reselling it?
Can I change in the logos of the PostgreSQL system and its name?

Yes.

You only have to make sure that the original license text is included
in your license. This does not limit what you are allowed to do with
the software.

Yours,
Laurenz Albe
--
Cybertec | https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com

Thank you all,
but it is saying (without fee)
if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell
it so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work
offline right?
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, *without fee*, and without a written
agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and
this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 11:18 PM Laurenz Albe <laurenz.albe@cybertec.at>
wrote:

On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:

but it is saying (without fee)
if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
right?
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp

--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | we build much bigger, better disasters now
|_|_) | | because we have much more sophisticated
| | | hjp@hjp.at | management tools.
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Ross Anderson <https://www.edge.org/&gt;

På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <
hjp-pgsql@hjp.at <mailto:hjp-pgsql@hjp.at>>: On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300,
Ashkar Dev wrote:

but it is saying (without fee)
if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell

it

so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work

offline

right?
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement

is

hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph

and

the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software
inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the
original license-file(s). -- Andreas Joseph Krogh CTO / Partner - Visena AS
Mobile: +47 909 56 963 andreas@visena.com <mailto:andreas@visena.com>
www.visena.com <https://www.visena.com&gt; <https://www.visena.com&gt;

On Sep 17, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas@visena.com> wrote:

På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <hjp-pgsql@hjp.at <mailto:hjp-pgsql@hjp.at>>:
On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:

but it is saying (without fee)
if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
right?
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp

A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the original license-file(s).

I take it that the OP has an app/dataset on top of PG he/she wishes to market (and protect). Perfectly legit, no? Not clear if there is a desire to disable direct db access.

På onsdag 18. september 2019 kl. 01:07:41, skrev Rob Sargent <
robjsargent@gmail.com <mailto:robjsargent@gmail.com>>: On Sep 17, 2019, at 4:18
PM, Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas@visena.com <mailto:andreas@visena.com>> wrote:
På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <
hjp-pgsql@hjp.at <mailto:hjp-pgsql@hjp.at>>: On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300,
Ashkar Dev wrote:

but it is saying (without fee)
if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell

it

so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work

offline

right?
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement

is

hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph

and

the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software
inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the
original license-file(s). I take it that the OP has an app/dataset on top of
PG he/she wishes to market (and protect). Perfectly legit, no? Not clear if
there is a desire to disable direct db access. That seems perfectly legit. I'm
not sure what "to work offline" means, but using PG for whatever commercial
purposes is totally fine, given the license-requirement above. -- Andreas
Joseph Krogh CTO / Partner - Visena AS Mobile: +47 909 56 963 andreas@visena.com
<mailto:andreas@visena.com> www.visena.com <https://www.visena.com&gt;
<https://www.visena.com&gt;

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was created
by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the
product to him can I sell the package that contains web app files with
PostgreSQL software and the database code?

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 2:23 AM Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas@visena.com>
wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?

You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?

You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

Why not?

Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of
Postgres.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?

You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app and schema and data.
You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

Why not?

Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of Postgres.

I see your point, but aren’t they in essence charging for their efforts in making, managing their fork. There are plenty of vendors, for a time I was one, who happily apply a schema to which ever database the client supplied (mssql, ora, pg in my case).

On 9/18/19 11:23 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:

On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?

You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app and schema and data.
You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

Why not?

Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of Postgres.

I see your point, but aren’t they in essence charging for their efforts in making, managing their fork. There are plenty of vendors, for a time I was one, who happily apply a schema to which ever database the client supplied (mssql, ora, pg in my case).

In general that pretty much applies to a lot of software that has price.
You don't actually own the software, just a paid license to use it. I'm
not saying whether it is a good idea or not, just that it is possible.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

Thanks,
but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?
as you said:

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL

should I in the contract write that the price does not include installing
PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont count
installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that price?

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 3:11 PM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Thanks,
but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?

Yes, otherwise these folks:

https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/

would a good deal less business.

as you said:

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL

should I in the contract write that the price does not include
installing PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
 or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont
count installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that
price?

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com
<mailto:robjsargent@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work

locally for

example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?

You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your
app
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software that
other people provide.

On 9/18/19 5:11 PM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Thanks,
but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?
as you said:

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL

should I in the contract write that the price does not include installing
PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
 or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont count
installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that price?

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com
<mailto:robjsargent@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?

You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for *services** you provide* not for software
that other people provide.

That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from

selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you
can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Cheers,
Ken

--
AGENCY Software
A Free Software data system
By and for non-profits
*http://agency-software.org/ <http://agency-software.org/&gt;*
*https://demo.agency-software.org/client
<https://demo.agency-software.org/client&gt;*
ken.tanzer@agency-software.org
(253) 245-3801

Subscribe to the mailing list
<agency-general-request@lists.sourceforge.net?body=subscribe> to
learn more about AGENCY or
follow the discussion.

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com
<mailto:ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com>> wrote:

Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software
that other people provide.

That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you from
selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model because you
can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot
(legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for *services** you provide* not for software
that other people provide.

That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from

selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you
can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You
cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting. Adrian took issue with that
statement, as do I. While Google isn't finding me anything that says
"Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:

- Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge
money to distribute Postgresql. You can't.

- Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more
restrictive license, can be sold. The free software folks consider the
right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free software. [1]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html

- The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source license,
similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2]https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/ The MIT license itself explicitly
states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."

Cheers,
Ken

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
[2]: https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/
[3]: https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

--
AGENCY Software
A Free Software data system
By and for non-profits
*http://agency-software.org/ <http://agency-software.org/&gt;*
*https://demo.agency-software.org/client
<https://demo.agency-software.org/client&gt;*
ken.tanzer@agency-software.org
(253) 245-3801

Subscribe to the mailing list
<agency-general-request@lists.sourceforge.net?body=subscribe> to
learn more about AGENCY or
follow the discussion.

On Sep 18, 2019, at 6:55 PM, Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:
Charging for installing PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for services you provide not for software that other people provide.

That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

That was my thought actually. By legitimate I meant in good conscience as opposed to any comment on the legality

On 9/18/19 8:26 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com
<mailto:ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com
<mailto:ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com>> wrote:

Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging
for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for
software that other people provide.

That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you
from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model
because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you
from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You
cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting.  Adrian took issue with that
statement, as do I.   While Google isn't finding me anything that says
"Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:

* Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge
money to distribute Postgresql.  You can't.

* Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more
restrictive license, can be sold.  The free software folks consider
the right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free
software.  [1]

* The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source license,
similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license itself
explicitly states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."

How do you sell what you don't own?

Cheers,
Ken

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
[2] https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/
[3] https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.