Subject: Re: [GENERAL] A book for PgSQL? A need? yes? no?

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Stephan Doliov wrote:

So, are we serious about this? Should we start up a list for
details?

//
// > Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
// > .1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
// > PostgreSQL.
// Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL
//
// Regarding the books contents. I think
// I. Section 1 - Intro
// 1. Brief Overview History
// 2. Getting and Installing
// 3. Setting up a Database
// 4. Maintaining a Database
// II. Section II - Making it work
// 1. Postgres' type system
// 2. Triggers & Functions
// 3. Embedded Scripting Languages
// a) pl/pgsql
// etc.
// 4. External access to postgres
// a) libpq
// b) libpq++
// c) odbc
// etc.
// 5. Interfacing PostgreSQL to the Web
// a) perl
// b) php3
// c) pygreSQL
// others
// III. Reference and Tekkie Stuff
// 1. The built-in functions
// 2. Query Optimization
// 3. Postmaster tuning & performance issues
// IV. New Features
// This would be a section where people could insert information related to
// the latest release. Much like law reports have addenda inserts at the
// back.
//
// my $0.02
//
// steve doliov
//
//
//

--
Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
| Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, dustin sallings wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Stephan Doliov wrote:

So, are we serious about this? Should we start up a list for
details?

Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not? If our
existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not, and
shouldn't those be fixed too?

//

// > Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
// > .1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
// > PostgreSQL.
// Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL
//
// Regarding the books contents. I think
// I. Section 1 - Intro
// 1. Brief Overview History
// 2. Getting and Installing
// 3. Setting up a Database
// 4. Maintaining a Database
// II. Section II - Making it work
// 1. Postgres' type system
// 2. Triggers & Functions
// 3. Embedded Scripting Languages
// a) pl/pgsql
// etc.
// 4. External access to postgres
// a) libpq
// b) libpq++
// c) odbc
// etc.
// 5. Interfacing PostgreSQL to the Web
// a) perl
// b) php3
// c) pygreSQL
// others
// III. Reference and Tekkie Stuff
// 1. The built-in functions
// 2. Query Optimization
// 3. Postmaster tuning & performance issues
// IV. New Features
// This would be a section where people could insert information related to
// the latest release. Much like law reports have addenda inserts at the
// back.
//
// my $0.02
//
// steve doliov
//
//
//

--
Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
| Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __

Marc G. Fournier
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

// Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
// done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not?
// If our existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not,
// and shouldn't those be fixed too?

It's not that the docs are bad, it's just that they're not on a
shelf. :)

// > > //
// > // > Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
// > // > .1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
// > // > PostgreSQL.
// > // Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL
// > //
// > // Regarding the books contents. I think
// > // I. Section 1 - Intro
// > // 1. Brief Overview History
// > // 2. Getting and Installing
// > // 3. Setting up a Database
// > // 4. Maintaining a Database
// > // II. Section II - Making it work
// > // 1. Postgres' type system
// > // 2. Triggers & Functions
// > // 3. Embedded Scripting Languages
// > // a) pl/pgsql
// > // etc.
// > // 4. External access to postgres
// > // a) libpq
// > // b) libpq++
// > // c) odbc
// > // etc.
// > // 5. Interfacing PostgreSQL to the Web
// > // a) perl
// > // b) php3
// > // c) pygreSQL
// > // others
// > // III. Reference and Tekkie Stuff
// > // 1. The built-in functions
// > // 2. Query Optimization
// > // 3. Postmaster tuning & performance issues
// > // IV. New Features
// > // This would be a section where people could insert information related to
// > // the latest release. Much like law reports have addenda inserts at the
// > // back.
// > //
// > // my $0.02
// > //
// > // steve doliov
// > //
// > //
// > //
// >
// > --
// > Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
// > pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
// > | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
// > L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __
// >
// >
//
// Marc G. Fournier
// Systems Administrator @ hub.org
// primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
//
//

--
Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
| Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __

Additionally manuals tend to be more of a reference whereas a book is
primarily a tutorial, then at the end it can contain reference type material.
If the book were to be written it would need complete and working examples
followed by the exact result for example.
Therefore I think it's a whole different animal and requires a list of its own.

Rudy

Date sent: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:32:40 -0800 (PST)
From: dustin sallings <dustin@spy.net>
To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Copies to: Stephan Doliov <statsol@statsol.com>, pgsql-novice@postgreSQL.org,
pgsql-general@postgreSQL.org
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [GENERAL] A book for PgSQL? A need? yes? no?

The Hermit Hacker wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, dustin sallings wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Stephan Doliov wrote:

So, are we serious about this? Should we start up a list for
details?

Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not? If our
existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not, and
shouldn't those be fixed too?

In the "FWIW Department" here's my $0.02.....

With the docs included in 6.4.2 and a good book or two on SQL &
database design I'm not really sure how much more you need to get a db
up and running. For serious, professional developers, I presume they
already have most of the skills to use PG as a development platform
and just have to learn the nuances. As PG simultaneously converges on
the SQL2/3 standard and goes its own enlightened way, I'm finding it
easier to use with each revision by referring to non-PG sources.

If the docs for PHP3 were as good as PostgreSQL's my little project
would be much further along but I see no reason why the folks at PG
should make up for PHP's shortcomings.

Questions still remain [like...why no outer joins & how to simulate
them] but these listservs have rescued me so far <G> Perhaps a list
devoted to Stephan's items 3, 4, and 5 would be helpful?

....Bill Sneed Prospect, Maine....

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, dustin sallings wrote:

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

// Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
// done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not?
// If our existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not,
// and shouldn't those be fixed too?

It's not that the docs are bad, it's just that they're not on a
shelf. :)

My point was that why re-create the wheel...why not bundle *those* up and
improve upon what is already there?

// > > //
// > // > Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
// > // > .1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
// > // > PostgreSQL.
// > // Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL
// > //
// > // Regarding the books contents. I think
// > // I. Section 1 - Intro
// > // 1. Brief Overview History
// > // 2. Getting and Installing
// > // 3. Setting up a Database
// > // 4. Maintaining a Database
// > // II. Section II - Making it work
// > // 1. Postgres' type system
// > // 2. Triggers & Functions
// > // 3. Embedded Scripting Languages
// > // a) pl/pgsql
// > // etc.
// > // 4. External access to postgres
// > // a) libpq
// > // b) libpq++
// > // c) odbc
// > // etc.
// > // 5. Interfacing PostgreSQL to the Web
// > // a) perl
// > // b) php3
// > // c) pygreSQL
// > // others
// > // III. Reference and Tekkie Stuff
// > // 1. The built-in functions
// > // 2. Query Optimization
// > // 3. Postmaster tuning & performance issues
// > // IV. New Features
// > // This would be a section where people could insert information related to
// > // the latest release. Much like law reports have addenda inserts at the
// > // back.
// > //
// > // my $0.02
// > //
// > // steve doliov
// > //
// > //
// > //
// >
// > --
// > Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
// > pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
// > | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
// > L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __
// >
// >
//
// Marc G. Fournier
// Systems Administrator @ hub.org
// primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
//
//

--
Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
| Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __

Marc G. Fournier
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Rudy Gireyev wrote:

Additionally manuals tend to be more of a reference whereas a book is
primarily a tutorial, then at the end it can contain reference type material.
If the book were to be written it would need complete and working examples
followed by the exact result for example.
Therefore I think it's a whole different animal and requires a list of its own.

pgsql-docs is underused as it is (ie. its dead for the most part)...if it
was a crowded list, I'd say sure, but don't we have enough lists now, that
ppl don't know about? :(

Rudy

Date sent: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:32:40 -0800 (PST)
From: dustin sallings <dustin@spy.net>
To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Copies to: Stephan Doliov <statsol@statsol.com>, pgsql-novice@postgreSQL.org,
pgsql-general@postgreSQL.org
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [GENERAL] A book for PgSQL? A need? yes? no?

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

// Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
// done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not?
// If our existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not,
// and shouldn't those be fixed too?

It's not that the docs are bad, it's just that they're not on a
shelf. :)

// > > //
// > // > Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
// > // > .1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
// > // > PostgreSQL.
// > // Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL
// > //
// > // Regarding the books contents. I think
// > // I. Section 1 - Intro
// > // 1. Brief Overview History
// > // 2. Getting and Installing
// > // 3. Setting up a Database
// > // 4. Maintaining a Database
// > // II. Section II - Making it work
// > // 1. Postgres' type system
// > // 2. Triggers & Functions
// > // 3. Embedded Scripting Languages
// > // a) pl/pgsql
// > // etc.
// > // 4. External access to postgres
// > // a) libpq
// > // b) libpq++
// > // c) odbc
// > // etc.
// > // 5. Interfacing PostgreSQL to the Web
// > // a) perl
// > // b) php3
// > // c) pygreSQL
// > // others
// > // III. Reference and Tekkie Stuff
// > // 1. The built-in functions
// > // 2. Query Optimization
// > // 3. Postmaster tuning & performance issues
// > // IV. New Features
// > // This would be a section where people could insert information related to
// > // the latest release. Much like law reports have addenda inserts at the
// > // back.
// > //
// > // my $0.02
// > //
// > // steve doliov
// > //
// > //
// > //
// >
// > --
// > Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
// > pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
// > | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
// > L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __
// >
// >
//
// Marc G. Fournier
// Systems Administrator @ hub.org
// primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
//
//

--
Principal Member Technical Staff, beyond.com The world is watching America,
pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@spy.net>
| Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
L______________________________________________ and America is watching TV. __

Marc G. Fournier
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not? If our
existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not, and
shouldn't those be fixed too?

since you asked, i don't like how the web page docs have each little
paragraph on a separate page. for example, in the frame at
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/programmer/index.html, i have to click on
"resources" to see that page, and then "terminology" is on a separate
page. it would be nicer, imho, if each chapter was on one page and the
subchapters were just links to labels within that page. for example, the
"1. introduction" and everything under it, "resources, terminology,
notation, ..." would all be on 1 page, instead of each on separate pages.

it's not a big deal i guess, it just seems really annoying to me when i'm
trying to read over stuff like that.

like, to me, mysql's documentation pages are laid out really well:
http://www.mysql.com/Manual_chapter/manual_toc.html

shrug.

-tcl.
tim@iuinc.com

The Hermit Hacker wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, dustin sallings wrote:

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
// Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
// done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not?
// If our existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not,
// and shouldn't those be fixed too?

It's not that the docs are bad, it's just that they're not on a
shelf. :)

My point was that why re-create the wheel...why not bundle *those* up and
improve upon what is already there?

Yes. Thomas put a ton of work into the documentation.

Two things:

A) The current work is already using DocBook, which is what
O'Rilley would like to see. This would be along term solution.

B) Untill a book is published by O'Rilley, there are lots of
"print-on-demand" places that will do cardboard/thin binding
relatively inexpesively if we go with a volume of say, 100 books.
To do this, we would have to pay for the printing, shipping/handling,
and numerous other annoying costs. To do this, you would want
to take a collection, etc.

There is a company on the web (my friend had this done) that will
print out books pre-paid in blocks of 50 and register them with
Amazon and Borders, etc. It ends up being relatively expensive
though for small volume ($25/book up-front) and by the time
Amazon tacks on a 100% profit + shipping and handling the cost
is close to $60.00 per book.

C) Another option, is just use the local Kinko's. It cost me almost
$50 to have Kinko's print my copy for me with holes double sided.

For that, we could easily setup a cgi script where you typed
in your address, and it sent your order to the nearest Kinko's
as a PDF file...

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, dustin sallings wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Stephan Doliov wrote:
So, are we serious about this? Should we start up a list for
details?

Like, pgsql-docs@postgresql.org :) How much of what is already
done by the Docs Team pertinent to all this, and, if not, why not? If our
existing manuals don't make good documentation, then why not, and
shouldn't those be fixed too?

Until web browsers are available on some device which folds in half like a
book and can be taken into places like bathtubs and beds and couces
without losing one's connection, books will have an enormous value.

The efforts of the docs teams has been tremendous and valuable beyond
description. The existing docs are the right place to start. It's
certainly worth it however to expand some sections, create new ones, and
edit existing ones. From my point of view, the docs give one most all the
information one needs to work postgres/have postgres work for one, but
they are not to the point yet where spending several days with them makes
one feel comfortable using the postgres system. It's kind of like a user
interface issue. The docs aren't super friendly yet.

as always,
just my $0.02
steve doliov

Stephan Doliov wrote:

The efforts of the docs teams has been tremendous and valuable beyond
description. The existing docs are the right place to start. It's
certainly worth it however to expand some sections, create new ones, and
edit existing ones. From my point of view, the docs give one most all the
information one needs to work postgres/have postgres work for one, but
they are not to the point yet where spending several days with them makes
one feel comfortable using the postgres system. It's kind of like a user
interface issue. The docs aren't super friendly yet.

Perhaps a "professional writer" is needed. If people put up
advertisements at your local college, perhaps a few english
majors (*very* valueable people) would be interested in
helping out with the documentation. It would look good
on their resume and would get them "published".

On a side note, you could also advertise for Jouralism
majors to put out a monthly PostgreSQL newsletter!

Thoughts?

Clark

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Gene Selkov Jr. wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Stephan Doliov wrote:
[snip likes holding books in hand and sniffing moldy pages]

Good point, but for any argument there are counter-arguments, and it is
sometimes so tempting to throw in a few good ones!
[snip litany of reasons that books are a pain]

good points also. maybe we don't need/want O'Reilly. that's OK.
certainly having something that can be zapped to kinkos and bound to user
specs is wonderful. that way the only people who really want booklike
stuff will have it and no publisher gets stuck with inventory of
unsaleable material. but there is the mindshare factor. an O'Reilly book
on the shelves would lend a lot of credibility to postgres (as if it
needed any). and that would probably be worthwhile. maybe someone is
interested in writing/editing and a target would be to publish when
postgres has pk/fk support, left and right joins and a few other features.

$0.02,
steve

Good point, but for any argument there are counter-arguments, and it is
sometimes so tempting to throw in a few good ones!
[snip litany of reasons that books are a pain]

good points also. maybe we don't need/want O'Reilly. that's OK.
certainly having something that can be zapped to kinkos and bound to user
specs is wonderful. that way the only people who really want booklike
stuff will have it and no publisher gets stuck with inventory of
unsaleable material. but there is the mindshare factor. an O'Reilly book
on the shelves would lend a lot of credibility to postgres (as if it
needed any). and that would probably be worthwhile. maybe someone is
interested in writing/editing and a target would be to publish when
postgres has pk/fk support, left and right joins and a few other features.

$0.02,
steve

----- End of forwarded message from Stephan Doliov -----

O'Reilly have some pretty tight requirements for books, which is a
good thing. One of those, common to all publishers, is that a product
is reasonably stable. All software gets updated, but no one wants
major work that gets outdated before the book even reaches the
bookshop. So it comes to Steve's point above. When postgres has
stabilised - or is it already? - then is the time to put together
a book that meets O'Reilly's requirements.
So, apart from pk/fk and joins, and no doubt a few other little
exclusions, how ready for having a book written around it is
postgres (PgSQL).
A good example is Sendmail. O'Reilly's book on Sendmail is a
masterpiece, and not at all a reprint of the docs. Sendmail has
been updated a number of times since the first book was released,
and there have been subsequent books released. But the fundamental
principles remain the same, so the re-write is not a "start from scratch"
work.
It comes down to this. To do a manuscript to O'Reilly specs is a
major undertaking. Is Postgres in its stable incantation, or will
there be a future release that is as radical a change as some of the
earlier ones? I'm not talking upgrades and additions here, but
basic principles. The fact that later editions may in fact have
such things as L/R joins is fine. But major rewrites of the whole
system is not fine.

The bottom line. I'm already working on a "Guide To PgSQL" that will
be published along T.Nelson/Addison Wesley/etc lines. This will cover
the material in Text Book style. Step by step bringing a new user
up to speed on the Postgres version of SQL as we know it now. Largely
non-technical. Not an installation manual. A User Guide/Tutorial.

I'm also putting the design together for a book that will fit
the O'Reilly mould. In depth, technical discussion of just how
to make PgSQL hum. Then I see if they are interested in publishing.

Likely publishing time frame? The first will be out
later this year, hopefully in time for second semester in colleges
and universities. The second... we'll see if there is interest in
publishing.

I love the comment by someone else on the list.
"Why a book, when we have a website full of docs?"
Answer: "Because I can put a book on the shelf in front of me"

great issue. I follow the discussions with interest.
--
Support Whirled Peas.
http://www.chalmers.com.au robert@chalmers.com.au
Location: P.O. Box 2003. Mackay. 4740. 21'7" S, 149'14" E.
China House - Mackay & The Whitsundays - Robert's Bookshop

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Rudy Gireyev wrote:

So if I'm reading this correctly, the book idea is dead. Right?

hardly. i think gene was being a little bit playful and i tried to point
out, as others have, the substantial point, which was acquiring mindshare
through the presence of an O'Reilly book. I think it's worth doing,
especially if it is well planned and a first release would coincide with a
release of postgres that has the few features/standards it is presently
missing -- sort of an postgres has truly arrived party (much the way linux
has gained mindshare credibility among non hacker types in the past 18
months).

steve

Just to let you know, I have two books in the pipeline now.
The first is in the nature of a "Guide", to learn the PgSQL version of sql,
and how to use it, from a non-technical pint of view. Basic administration,
creating, modifying, updating, relationships, odbc+access.
A book for the learning and end-user environment. In progress now. In the
Addison Wesley/T. Nelson style. Couple of months to get to print.

The second is the O'Reilly standard. In planning stage. Indepth - technical.
If you have seen "Sendmail" by O'Reilly, you know what I mean. Much longer
to get to print. Big project.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephan Doliov <statsol@statsol.com>
To: <pgsql-general@postgreSQL.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 1999 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [GENERAL] A book for PgSQL? A need? yes? no?

I would be interested in more information on these and any books that are or
may come available on Postgres. Please keep us posted.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Chalmers [SMTP:robert@chalmers.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 4:09 PM
To: Stephan Doliov; pgsql-general@postgreSQL.org
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [GENERAL] A book for PgSQL? A need?
yes? no?

Just to let you know, I have two books in the pipeline now.
The first is in the nature of a "Guide", to learn the PgSQL version
of sql,
and how to use it, from a non-technical pint of view. Basic
administration,
creating, modifying, updating, relationships, odbc+access.
A book for the learning and end-user environment. In progress now.
In the
Addison Wesley/T. Nelson style. Couple of months to get to print.

The second is the O'Reilly standard. In planning stage. Indepth -
technical.
If you have seen "Sendmail" by O'Reilly, you know what I mean. Much
longer
to get to print. Big project.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephan Doliov <statsol@statsol.com>
To: <pgsql-general@postgreSQL.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 1999 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [GENERAL] A book for PgSQL? A need? yes?
no?

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Rudy Gireyev wrote:

So if I'm reading this correctly, the book idea is dead. Right?

hardly. i think gene was being a little bit playful and i tried to

point

out, as others have, the substantial point, which was acquiring

mindshare

through the presence of an O'Reilly book. I think it's worth

doing,

especially if it is well planned and a first release would coincide

with a

release of postgres that has the few features/standards it is

presently

missing -- sort of an postgres has truly arrived party (much the

way linux

has gained mindshare credibility among non hacker types in the past

18

At 4:08 PM 2/11/99, Stephan Doliov wrote:

Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
.1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
PostgreSQL.

Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL

Missing Chapter:
Porting Data and Structures from other databases

Regarding the books contents. I think
I. Section 1 - Intro
1. Brief Overview History
2. Getting and Installing
3. Setting up a Database
4. Maintaining a Database
II. Section II - Making it work
1. Postgres' type system
2. Triggers & Functions
3. Embedded Scripting Languages
a) pl/pgsql
etc.
4. External access to postgres
a) libpq
b) libpq++
c) odbc
etc.
5. Interfacing PostgreSQL to the Web
a) perl
b) php3
c) pygreSQL
others
III. Reference and Tekkie Stuff
1. The built-in functions
2. Query Optimization
3. Postmaster tuning & performance issues
IV. New Features
This would be a section where people could insert information related to
the latest release. Much like law reports have addenda inserts at the
back.

my $0.02

steve doliov

-- "TANSTAAFL" Rich lynch@cognitivearts.com webmaster@ and www. all of:
R&B/jazz/blues/rock - jademaze.com music industry org - chatmusic.com
acoustic/funk/world-beat - astrakelly.com sculptures - olivierledoux.com
my own nascent company - l-i-e.com cool coffeehouse - uncommonground.com

At 12:58 PM 2/12/99, Bill Sneed wrote:

If the docs for PHP3 were as good as PostgreSQL's my little project
would be much further along but I see no reason why the folks at PG
should make up for PHP's shortcomings.

I find the ca.php.net web-site to be extremely easy to use, and contains
everything I need to know...

The user contributions to the notes in particular are extremely valuable...

I prefer the PHP docs, myself...

Guess it's just a matter of taste.

-- "TANSTAAFL" Rich lynch@cognitivearts.com webmaster@ and www. all of:
R&B/jazz/blues/rock - jademaze.com music industry org - chatmusic.com
acoustic/funk/world-beat - astrakelly.com sculptures - olivierledoux.com
my own nascent company - l-i-e.com cool coffeehouse - uncommonground.com

Stephan Doliov wrote:

Since we are tossing ideas around, here is my two cents.
.1c In order not to worry about royalties we can donate proceeds to
PostgreSQL.

Amen/Bravo! This would truly be in the spirit of PostgreSQL

How about the publisher? The editors? etc.

It might be that paid editors are better than
free ones... and thus the book sells 10x the
amount of copies, and thus the "donation" is
5x what it would have been without the paid
editors!!

Also, it might be that the book will have
more/better content if some of the individuals
earn some money for their work, it might not
be a ton, but that's beside the point. For
instance, I'd like to see Thomas get a flight
to some warm fuzzy place if he's in a northern
climate. The same with some of the other "key"
players in the PostgreSQL group: Marc, Bruce, etc.

The question I'm asking is: What is the
legal structure of PostgreSQL? And even
more so: What is the "Contract" for this book?

If you IGNORE the fact that a contract _does_
exist and don't track it... then it will be
a mess and people will feel cheated. This is
counter-productive and could serve to HURT
the PostgreSQL group more than it helps.

THUS, I'm not saying that the "proceeds"
shouldn't go to PostgreSQL. I'm saying
let's further spell this out. Let's do
it formally. It's not _that_ hard.

My offer:

I'll create a list for us to discuss this
contract (with an experienced bookkeeper *and*
attorney present on the list). Usually, the
legal work _and_ the bookkeeping work for
the making sure that everything is "above
the board" usually amounts to 4% of gross.
Since we are building our bookkeeping system
using PostgreSQL, we would consider our work
as payment for royalty-free use of the database.

O'Rilley is going to make money from your
efforts, I think those people should make money
commensurate with the effort that they put into
the project. Unless you do adiquate bookkeeping
and have a formal agreement, this WON'T HAPPEN.
Someone will run away with _your_ cherry.

Frankly, I'm sick of people abusing OpenSource
projects by taking all the money-making opportunities
and hogging them, and leaving all of the hard
grind-stone work to those who 'donate'.

This is the very reason _why_ I'm making a
bookkeeping system in the first place. So.. .
it'd be cool if we all tried a "collaborative"
effort... with the *real* legal and accounting
expertise to back it up.

If you would like to know more, let me know.
The list can be up tomorow and we can start
putting together legal language on Thursday!

Best,

Clark Evans

P.S. By now you are asking "So... what's in it
for Clark" Since you asked, here is my candid answer:

a) Seeing a kick ass book.

b) Seeing all those who contributed to the
book and to the database which the book
is written about compensated equitably
for their work.

c) It's taken me a year of hard work to get
in the position where I can do this. Finally
seeing what myself and my associates have
been working so hard to generate would be
way cool!

d) The bookkeeping system still isn't complete,
having a community of users to help develop
it more would be fantastic! Nothing like
a real user.

e) The feeling that I've repayed the
community that has given me a database
upon which I am building my bookkeeping
system.

f) Showing that legal language and accounting
complement open-source projects.

g) Showing that "open-source" != "no-money"

What do you say?