Postgres idea list

On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 21:31, Neil Conway wrote:

On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:39PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single
file, postgres.conf.

I don't see why this would be a win.

What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and
postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely
interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.

Folks,

Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
around:

1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.

etc ....

I hereby nominate Greg as PostgreSQL.org Marketing Director.

--
-Josh Berkus

"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com> writes:

Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
around:

Some of these strike me as good ideas, some not, but for the moment I
don't want to get dragged into debating them individually. The thought
that kept coming to me as I read your list is: who exactly is going to
*do* all this stuff? I sure don't want to. Reflecting on it leads me
to realize that our existing project leadership (core committee and
other key people) is mostly technically-focused people. We have been
doing a good job of providing technical leadership, and a pretty
good job of providing project infrastructure, but anything to do with
marketing, promotion, or advocacy has been given the cold shoulder,
I think.

We need a few volunteers with the time and inclination to do that kind
of work.

It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
concerns.

regards, tom lane

On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:39PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single
file, postgres.conf.

I don't see why this would be a win.

Have a command-line tool to make changes.

You mean like vi(1) ? :-)

Have a way to test out the changes, similar to "apachectl configtest"

Not sure about this -- I can see the importance of testing out
configuration changes, but AFAICS "pg_ctl configtest" would be
little more than a glorified syntax check. I think we need to rely on
DBA's to ensure that the configuration changes they make are valid.

4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website
is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result
is 65 matches, and each one a filename.

I've heard this from others as well.

5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and
content. mySQL actually has this one right.

Agreed.

Release more often, even if more minor:

Why? I think the PostgreSQL release engineering process is good.

stick to beta deadlines strictly.

Why? I'd much prefer that we release code when we are (relatively)
sure it is ready for production use, rather than shoving experimental
code out the door to meet an artificial and probably unrealistic
release target.

Cheers,

Neil

--
Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC

Folks,

What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and
postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely
interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.

I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary solution to any of
our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!

--
-Josh Berkus

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Do people want an advocacy article written, like "How to choose a
database?" I could do that.

That would be good, as would an updated "postgres vs mysql" article
to point people towards. Or a "postgres myths debunked" page.

Basically, I am open to ideas. Would it help to fly me out to meet IT
leaders? More books/articles? What does it take? What do successful
companies and open source projects do that works?

Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
around:

1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.

pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org has been around for >1year now ...

4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website
is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result
is 65 matches, and each one a filename.

are you volunteering your time for this?

5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and
content. mySQL actually has this one right.

already being worked on by a group of programmers and web designers ...

6. Moderate the lists better. There is a lot of traffic in general that
should be going to other lists. Keep all the high-volume, nitty-gritty
stuff on hackers, away from everyday users looking for help.

again, are you volunteering your time for this?

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com> writes:

Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
around:

Some of these strike me as good ideas, some not, but for the moment I
don't want to get dragged into debating them individually. The thought
that kept coming to me as I read your list is: who exactly is going to
*do* all this stuff? I sure don't want to. Reflecting on it leads me
to realize that our existing project leadership (core committee and
other key people) is mostly technically-focused people. We have been
doing a good job of providing technical leadership, and a pretty
good job of providing project infrastructure, but anything to do with
marketing, promotion, or advocacy has been given the cold shoulder,
I think.

We need a few volunteers with the time and inclination to do that kind
of work.

It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
concerns.

You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ...
pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org? :)

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:43 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.

pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org has been around for >1year now ...

Not on archives.postgresql.org though, nor has it is listed in the
user-oriented mailing lists at

http://www.ca.postgresql.org/users-lounge/index.html

It's also not listed among the developer-oriented lists at

http://developer.postgresql.org/maillist.php

either (not to mention ftp.postgresql.org). While it may technically
exist, it is well hidden.

Cheers,

Neil

--
Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Josh Berkus wrote:

Folks,

What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and
postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely
interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.

I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary solution to any of
our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!

Agreed about specifically focusing on PGAdmin, *but*, there are other
interfaces that could really make use of such a feature ... PHPPgAdmin
being one ...

... but, the first argument against this is what happens if/when someone
puts in an entry in a 'pg_hba' table that blocks everyone from having
access? Or similar changes ...

If I recall correctly, the main argument against moving pg_hba (as an
example) is that you would have to move the 'access restrictions' inside
the backend (postgres) itself, instead of the front end (postmaster),
creating a high probably of a DDoS attack being quite effective ...

Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin*

But, you are right, should be advertised better ... I have some updates to
do to archives over the next day or two, in order to add in -patches also
...

As for your comments about 'filtering -general', there is nothing stopping
anyone from doing what I'm doing with this ... CC'ng -advocacy and
setting a Reply-To (wonder if that holds through majordomo?) over to
-advocacy where this sort of stuff belongs ... :)

Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Neil Conway wrote:

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
concerns.

You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ...
pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org? :)

You know, I seemed to remember that we had such a list, but I looked at
http://archives.postgresql.org/
and saw no archive for it, so I figured we didn't.

If you're about to go out and create it, may I suggest that the name
-advocacy might not be the best thing? -advocacy lists seem (to me
anyway) to be more often flamebait arenas than useful discussion areas.
Perhaps pgsql-promotion would be a good name that'd avoid the aura of
flamewars. Or maybe that's just my own perception not anyone else's.

regards, tom lane

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com]
Sent: 26 June 2002 01:51
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Cc: Rod Taylor
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list

Folks,

What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf
and postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could

write a lovely

interface to manage them without requiring direct access to

the files.

I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary
solution to any of
our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!

Just for info, *absolute* number 1 priority for the next major release
of pgAdmin is to take the 5+ years of experience and rewrite the code in
a more platform independent language.

Regards, Dave.

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Sabino Mullane [mailto:greg@turnstep.com]
Sent: 25 June 2002 20:04
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list

12. Offer something "fun": a naming contest for the elephant (I know,
I know),

Isn't the elephant called Slonik? I vaguely remember picking that up
from an existing alt tag when I redesigned the odbc site...

Regards, Dave.

Hi Tom,

Tom Lane wrote:

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:

<snip>

You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ...
pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org? :)

You know, I seemed to remember that we had such a list, but I looked at
http://archives.postgresql.org/
and saw no archive for it, so I figured we didn't.

If you're about to go out and create it, may I suggest that the name
-advocacy might not be the best thing? -advocacy lists seem (to me
anyway) to be more often flamebait arenas than useful discussion areas.
Perhaps pgsql-promotion would be a good name that'd avoid the aura of
flamewars. Or maybe that's just my own perception not anyone else's.

There is already a pgsql-advocacy list (as was pointed out recently),
but it's unused.

Borrow a leaf from the OpenOffice.org project, how about a
pgsql-marketing list?

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

Dave,

Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have
started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication
of effort as a waste of time.

Dave

Daves,

Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have
started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication
of effort as a waste of time.

Java has its drawbacks, but a JPgAdmin tool would significantly encourage
Postgres-OpenOffice.org integration.

--
-Josh Berkus

Josh,

What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
circumvented?

Dave

Dave,

What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
circumvented?

1. Java is not Open Source. It's an open standard, but not OS.

2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current
Postgres JDBC drivers. I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor, here.

3. There are compatiblity issues between the various JVMs. We'd have to pick
a particular JVM and stick with it, and get a lot of complaints from users on
other JVMs. I don't know how serious the issues are.

--
-Josh Berkus

______AGLIO DATABASE SOLUTIONS___________________________
Josh Berkus
Complete information technology josh@agliodbs.com
and data management solutions (415) 565-7293
for law firms, small businesses fax 621-2533
and non-profit organizations. San Francisco

Josh,

1) There is an open source implementation of java
2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.
3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
here.

Dave

Dave,

1) There is an open source implementation of java

Really? I thought Sun had a patent.

2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.

That's great news, especially as we are planning to write a small business
accounting package using Postgres, OpenOffice.org, and Java.

3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
here.

Cool. As I said, I don't think that any of the issues are prohibitive.

BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools? There
seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space.

-Josh Berkus

On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote:

Dave,

1) There is an open source implementation of java

Really? I thought Sun had a patent.

www.blackdown.org

2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.

That's great news, especially as we are planning to write a small business
accounting package using Postgres, OpenOffice.org, and Java.

That's awesome, have you looked at compiere?
www.sf.net/projects/compiere

3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
here.

Cool. As I said, I don't think that any of the issues are prohibitive.

BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools? There
seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space.

Ya, they're on the list

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Dave Page wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Sabino Mullane [mailto:greg@turnstep.com]
Sent: 25 June 2002 20:04
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list

12. Offer something "fun": a naming contest for the elephant (I know,
I know),

Isn't the elephant called Slonik? I vaguely remember picking that up

it's fine.
it's transliteration of russian translation of elephant (diminutive).

from an existing alt tag when I redesigned the odbc site...

Regards, Dave.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cramer [mailto:Dave@micro-automation.net]
Sent: 26 June 2002 19:01
To: Dave Page
Cc: josh@agliodbs.com; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Rod Taylor
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list

Dave,

Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I
have started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see
the duplication of effort as a waste of time.

I do, but I've had nothing but bad experiences with Java though I'm open
to new evidence/persuasion. I do agree that duplication of effort is not
a good idea and I'm certainly not against collaborating on a new version
though I must point out that having written pgAdmin from scratch twice
now (three times if you cound my original proof of concept) over the
last 5-6 years, I have *very* specific ideas on how pgAdmin should work.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as it's been *my* project for
years (not forgetting the contributions from Jean-Michel & others),
changing that and working as another member of a team would be *very*
difficult for me.

I hope you can understand this, having spent hundreds of hours and
written 100,000+ lines of production code _almost_ single handedly it
gets kinda personnal :-)

Let me say now though, even if I do stay with my own version, if you
ever need help don't hesitate to ask.

Regards, Dave.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:35:07 PDT, the world broke into rejoicing as
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> said:

What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
circumvented?

1. Java is not Open Source. It's an open standard, but not OS.

The problem is not with the language; it is with the layered libraries
on top.

It's reasonably usable as a server side language; the _real_ serious
problems come in if you want to build a GUIed application, when your
choice is between:

a) A really klunky AWT UI that will be unacceptable to all, and

b) A SWING UI that makes your application critically dependent on
non-"open source" software.

The old Java 1.01 stuff is fairly successfully "freely usable," but
that's not what anyone wants to develop with. They want the cool new
J2EE stuff, and it takes some serious research to figure out that you
aren't going to be doing that with 'free software,' despite the
existence of stuff like JBoss. You still need components that are
Definitely Not Free.

The answer is that someone has to implement a complete set of
replacements for the SunSoft components under free licenses. That
"circumvention" is a distinctly non-trivial task.

2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current
Postgres JDBC drivers. I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor,
here.

I've not run into problems with them, but maybe my use hasn't been
extensive enough :-).
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@acm.org")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html
"Remember folks. Street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70
mph." -- Jim Samuels

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin*

It's on the subscription form.

[snip]

Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...

all done.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
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On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 13:50, Josh Berkus wrote:

BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools? There
seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space.

I know for my PERSONAL stuff, commercial tools ($$) mean I don't even
bother. I have some consulting clients, but using pay for stuff
generally won't work for them, plus I can't usually afford the fees for
my own use, so therefore are not conversant with the commercial tools.

Nothing against them, but...

Just my $.02 worth.

--
Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749

Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...

all done.

Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
link.

Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?

Thanks,
Rod

On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote:

Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...

all done.

Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
link.

Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?

I have no idea who does what on archives. I just yell at Marc if
something's broke.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

Rod Taylor <rbt@zort.ca> writes:

Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
link.

Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?

I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look
carefully to find the list I want.

regards, tom lane

-patches added ... I've gotta redo that page, as it was just a
'quick-n-dirty' when I did it ...

On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote:

will do it tonight :)

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:

http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better?

Yup, although I'd suggest making the classification line up with
the one on the main website --- docs and cygwin are listed as
developer lists there.

Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
(most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
difficult.

regards, tom lane

On 26 Jun 2002 14:36:15 EDT, the world broke into rejoicing as
Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net> said:

Josh,

1) There is an open source implementation of java
2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.
3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
here.

There are "free software" implementations of Java compilers and of Java
Virtual Machines.

Are there suitable "free software" implementations of _all_ the
libraries that you will be needing to construct the admin tool?

In particular, can you direct us to a free software implementation of
Swing?

I doubt that you can, and _that_ is the characteristic problem with
Java. The language is "free enough," but the libraries you will want to
use aren't...
--
(concatenate 'string "chris" "@cbbrowne.com")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html
HAKMEM ITEM 163 (Sussman):
To exchange two variables in LISP without using a third variable:
(SETQ X (PROG2 0 Y (SETQ Y X)))

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:

http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better?

Yup, although I'd suggest making the classification line up with
the one on the main website --- docs and cygwin are listed as
developer lists there.

Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
(most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
difficult.

Better?

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc

The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work
on again ...

Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
(most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
difficult.

Better?

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc

The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work
on again ...

I don't think I've been so happy to see a webpage.

Much better.

Curious how there is a 'search the archives' link going to FTS when
there is a form at the top of the page using another mechanism.

On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote:

Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
(most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
difficult.

Better?

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc

The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work
on again ...

I don't think I've been so happy to see a webpage.

Much better.

Curious how there is a 'search the archives' link going to FTS when
there is a form at the top of the page using another mechanism.

two different methods of searching ... those pages still need one helluva
lot of cleanups though, as I shoudl re-word that 'Search the archives' as
something more like 'Alternative methods of searching' or something like
that, and point to FTS and Google ...

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cramer [mailto:Dave@micro-automation.net]
Sent: 27 June 2002 12:12
To: Dave Page
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list

Dave,

Thanks for the response.

On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 15:21, Dave Page wrote:

I do, but I've had nothing but bad experiences with Java though I'm
open to new evidence/persuasion. I do agree that

duplication of effort

is not a good idea and I'm certainly not against collaborating on a
new version though I must point out that having written

pgAdmin from

scratch twice now (three times if you cound my original proof of
concept) over the last 5-6 years, I have *very* specific

ideas on how

pgAdmin should work.

I've heard this "bad experience" thing a few times and I
would like to understand this better. I have been developing
in java for quite some time now, and have no worse, or better
time with it.

Most recently, the Cisco Visual Switch manager app that's in the
firmware of my 2950-24 switches which won't run on any Linux or Win32
system I've got within 6 feet of me. You'd think they'd get it right.

I have often found that applets from various places give exception
errors and refuse to run. Others are extremely slow.

On the plus side, there is a Java Telnet app that I used to use that was
*very* good.

Let me say now though, even if I do stay with my own

version, if you

ever need help don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks very much for the offer, actually your code is quite helpful.

:-)

Regards, Dave.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:50:21PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:

On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote:

Dave,

1) There is an open source implementation of java

Really? I thought Sun had a patent.

www.blackdown.org

I'd rather not call this open source. From the source tree:

Copyright 2001 Sun Microsystems, Inc., 901 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto,
California 94303, U.S.A. All rights reserved.

This product or document is protected by copyright and distributed under
licenses restricting its use, copying, distribution, and decompilation.
No part
of this product or document may be reproduced in any form by any means
without
prior written authorization of Sun and its licensors, if any.
Third-party
software, including font technology, is copyrighted and licensed from
Sun
suppliers.

Sun, Sun Microsystems, the Sun Logo, Java, JDK, the Java Coffee Cup
logo, JavaBeans,
and JDBC
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Michael
--
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

http://www.kaffe.org/

On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Michael Meskes wrote: