PostgreSQL Training

I have a table with 10,000 rows. We have an application that parses a *.csv
file and uploads the data to the database table. The csv parser takes the
column numbers form the csv file and matches the column numbers to the field
positions in the DB table.

Now, I have to change the position of a column in the DB to match the csv
parser. I have a column in position 28 that I need to move to position 7.

Anyone know how to do that?

Thanks,
Derrick

Amy Young wrote:

Hello, everyone.

I am VERY new, as in simply researching possibilities, to SQL Servers in
any shape or form.

However, I do have a question: on the PostgreSQL website (About Us >>
Advantages) it mentions:
"In addition to this our training programs are generally regarded as
being far more cost effective, manageable, and practical in the real
world than that of the leading proprietary database vendors.
"

Where's the training? I can't find any other information about this
remarkable training on their website. Can someone point me in the right
direction?

I think that is about the author of the web site, and is being removed.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

I think that is about the author of the web site, and is
being removed.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us

Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed
wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being
strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard
certification/training?

Bryan

Bryan Encina wrote:

I think that is about the author of the web site, and is
being removed.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us

Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed
wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being
strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard
certification/training?

No, we don't know how to certify it reliably as a community. I have
training in Atlanta and don't have a huge number of folks, so if they
want training, they don't want mine. :-(

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800
From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org>
To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training

I think that is about the author of the web site, and is
being removed.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us

Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed
wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being
strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard
certification/training?

Bryan

I think that, in part, this goes to issues like I mentioned to someone,
off-list, about a response to a query that I raised on the GENERAL list,
about the "Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days" book, which is
advertised on the Internet, but which does not exist.

The absence of that book, is unfortunate, as, from what I have seen of
the Table of Contents of the MySQL equivalent, which I mention below,
the MySQL book appears to be a reasonably good, structured, way to learn
MySQL, and, an equivalent book for PostgreSQL; a similarly structured
book, with the equivalent exercises, would, I believe, be a good way to
learn PostgreSQL, in a structured way.

A while ago, on (I believe) the GENERAL list, a discussion occurred
about PostgreSQL certification, in which discussion, PostgreSQL
certification was apparently knocked on the head. I found the
discussion, by searching, using google, for "PostgreSQL certification".

As I had said to the person with whom I corresponded off-list, with the
knowledge that I have of database development, what I am intending to
do, as the only apparent option, in all of the circumstances, is to
obtain the "Teach Yourself MySQL In 21 Days" book, which does exist,
work through it, then sit the MySQL certifications, which exist (MySQL 4
Core Certification and MySQL 4 Certified Professional), and then, on
passing those, transfer the acquired skills and knowledge, to
PostgreSQL, by working through the book, as much as possible, using
PostgreSQL, and, working through available PostgreSQL books; thus,
obtaining open source database development skills and certification with
MySQL, and, while not formalised or certified, PostgreSQL skills.

It is fairly convoluted, but appears to be the only way of getting
PostgreSQL skills in a structured way, and, (kind of) related
certification.

From my understanding, PostgreSQL is a more powerful and more ANSI-SQL
standard-compliant DBMS, than MySQL, and, than major commercial DBMS's,
but PostgreSQL apparently lacks formal assessment and certification of
skills in the same way that MySQL has, thus making training and
certification for PostgreSQL, lacking in comparison.

The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications,
like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I
understand, similarly, internationally recognised.

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is
that practitioners appear to be hack-programmers (I do not mean that in
a derogatory way, but, in the sense of being lacking in formal
training and certification in PostgreSQL skills), in the absence of
formalised training and certification. I understand that, as with
PostgreSQL, in the Perl community, resistance to any form of skills
certification, exists. This is found by similarly searching on "Perl
certification". Thus, is the existence of the title, as apparently used
by many Perl programmers; JAPH - Just Another Perl Hacker. That too, has
been mentioned, in the discussions about the prospect of Perl
certification

I am not intending to troll, or to enter into any brand flame war with
this (and I hope that this message is not misconstrued as flaming or
trolling, but, rather, taken as the constructive criticism as it is
intended to be); however, I think that the lack of training and
certification facilities such as exist for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, is a
bit disappointing, and leaves the path that I intend to take, as the
only option available, to get into development using PostgreSQL.

I personally, believe, and, suggest, that formalised, structured,
training, and, international assessment and certification, as exists and
as is supposed to be being developed for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, would go
a long way to increased public acceptance of PostgreSQL, and, to the
maturity of PostgreSQL, and would thus lead to increased public use of
PostgreSQL. (And, a good Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book,
would be good, too :) . )

My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people,
and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which
she develops.

However, when the issue of open source software development, such as in
PostgreSQL, arises, her employer company apparently steers away from it,
instead, steering toward software development, using software tools that
are internationally recognised and in which certification is available,
and, I believe that her employer company regards things like PostgreSQL,
as the dark and murky unknown, especially in the absence of any
recognised formal training and certification.

It is one thing to say that PostgreSQL is big and powerful, and that it
is (or, as I believe, is) the most ANSI-SQL standards-compliant DBMS,
and that it is used for such major projects as (as I believe) the .org
registry, but, in the absence of recognition of PostgreSQL as being
backed by formal training and certification, it is difficult to obtain
acceptance of PostgreSQL.

But, the issue of formal and structured training and certification in
PostgreSQL, is something to be decided by the PostgreSQL guru's, I
believe, and, until they implement these things, we are left in the
dark, and, required to do things such as travel the path that I have
mentioned, via MySQL. And, it is always possible, that, in
following such a path, and having obtained MySQL certification, a person
may stay with MySQL, thus, the path of formalised training and
certification, taking potential software developers, and, thence,
potential customers, to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL.

Thus, whilst, if I chose that path, it might not be any great loss, if
others followed that path, and, went to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL, due
to the lack of formalised training and certification of PostgreSQL
skills, it would be a loss of potential usage and acceptance, by
PostgreSQL, kind of like PostgreSQL shooting itself in its feet.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
....................................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Although you certainly have a point that a lot of companies rely on
"certification" in the one or other way, you'd have to admit that probably
80% of "certified" people have no clue what they are talking about.
I met so many certified people where you could give them a problem and they
have no idea of how to solve it.
IMHO a certification is a fabulous way to generate money flow for the company
offering the certification, it's not a way to proof skills. What most
certifications lack is problem solving. The moment you can just learn it and
take the test the certification is complete nonsense.
Microsoft started this "certification" thing just to generate more income -
there are so many MSCE's that normally a spreading virus shouldn't spread -
since, you guessed it, a decent administrator would have applied patches,
checked for threads, have a decent firewall etc. etc.
I'm not completely against certification, however it should be real education
in the first place. There are only few certifications out there that really
test skills and not book knowledge.
As it comes to postgresql - it's a pretty usual rdbms. No fundamentally big
difference to oracle and similar systems. If you can handle oracle you
shouldn't have a problem with postgresql. The issues you'll certainly
encounter are usually easy to figure out via the community or the techdocs.

Sure I can't change the system, but companies should start to change their way
of operating. Most certifications (and even academic degrees) simply proof
that you could acquire a certain amount of theoretical knowledge in a certain
amount of time. It doesn't proof that you can actually apply that knowledge
to real world situations. And if you look around in companies - large or
small - you see the same amount of bad decisions over and over again.

- From that experience I supprot the idea of making postgresql more public, but
don't start a certification that basically asks for the contents of the 15
year old SQL book catching dust on some shelf.
I agree that more and better documentation in a more "business" adequate way
should be published.

Just to do a little "flame" thing: If you learn MySQL you'll get about 10% of
what postgresql can do - better head for a oracle certification.

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 11:09 pm, Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800
From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org>
To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training

I think that is about the author of the web site, and is
being removed.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us

Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed
wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50%
being strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard
certification/training?

Bryan

I think that, in part, this goes to issues like I mentioned to someone,
off-list, about a response to a query that I raised on the GENERAL list,
about the "Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days" book, which is
advertised on the Internet, but which does not exist.

The absence of that book, is unfortunate, as, from what I have seen of
the Table of Contents of the MySQL equivalent, which I mention below,
the MySQL book appears to be a reasonably good, structured, way to learn
MySQL, and, an equivalent book for PostgreSQL; a similarly structured
book, with the equivalent exercises, would, I believe, be a good way to
learn PostgreSQL, in a structured way.

A while ago, on (I believe) the GENERAL list, a discussion occurred
about PostgreSQL certification, in which discussion, PostgreSQL
certification was apparently knocked on the head. I found the
discussion, by searching, using google, for "PostgreSQL certification".

As I had said to the person with whom I corresponded off-list, with the
knowledge that I have of database development, what I am intending to
do, as the only apparent option, in all of the circumstances, is to
obtain the "Teach Yourself MySQL In 21 Days" book, which does exist,
work through it, then sit the MySQL certifications, which exist (MySQL 4
Core Certification and MySQL 4 Certified Professional), and then, on
passing those, transfer the acquired skills and knowledge, to
PostgreSQL, by working through the book, as much as possible, using
PostgreSQL, and, working through available PostgreSQL books; thus,
obtaining open source database development skills and certification with
MySQL, and, while not formalised or certified, PostgreSQL skills.

It is fairly convoluted, but appears to be the only way of getting
PostgreSQL skills in a structured way, and, (kind of) related
certification.

From my understanding, PostgreSQL is a more powerful and more ANSI-SQL
standard-compliant DBMS, than MySQL, and, than major commercial DBMS's,
but PostgreSQL apparently lacks formal assessment and certification of
skills in the same way that MySQL has, thus making training and
certification for PostgreSQL, lacking in comparison.

The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications,
like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I
understand, similarly, internationally recognised.

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is
that practitioners appear to be hack-programmers (I do not mean that in
a derogatory way, but, in the sense of being lacking in formal
training and certification in PostgreSQL skills), in the absence of
formalised training and certification. I understand that, as with
PostgreSQL, in the Perl community, resistance to any form of skills
certification, exists. This is found by similarly searching on "Perl
certification". Thus, is the existence of the title, as apparently used
by many Perl programmers; JAPH - Just Another Perl Hacker. That too, has
been mentioned, in the discussions about the prospect of Perl
certification

I am not intending to troll, or to enter into any brand flame war with
this (and I hope that this message is not misconstrued as flaming or
trolling, but, rather, taken as the constructive criticism as it is
intended to be); however, I think that the lack of training and
certification facilities such as exist for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, is a
bit disappointing, and leaves the path that I intend to take, as the
only option available, to get into development using PostgreSQL.

I personally, believe, and, suggest, that formalised, structured,
training, and, international assessment and certification, as exists and
as is supposed to be being developed for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, would go
a long way to increased public acceptance of PostgreSQL, and, to the
maturity of PostgreSQL, and would thus lead to increased public use of
PostgreSQL. (And, a good Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book,
would be good, too :) . )

My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people,
and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which
she develops.

However, when the issue of open source software development, such as in
PostgreSQL, arises, her employer company apparently steers away from it,
instead, steering toward software development, using software tools that
are internationally recognised and in which certification is available,
and, I believe that her employer company regards things like PostgreSQL,
as the dark and murky unknown, especially in the absence of any
recognised formal training and certification.

It is one thing to say that PostgreSQL is big and powerful, and that it
is (or, as I believe, is) the most ANSI-SQL standards-compliant DBMS,
and that it is used for such major projects as (as I believe) the .org
registry, but, in the absence of recognition of PostgreSQL as being
backed by formal training and certification, it is difficult to obtain
acceptance of PostgreSQL.

But, the issue of formal and structured training and certification in
PostgreSQL, is something to be decided by the PostgreSQL guru's, I
believe, and, until they implement these things, we are left in the
dark, and, required to do things such as travel the path that I have
mentioned, via MySQL. And, it is always possible, that, in
following such a path, and having obtained MySQL certification, a person
may stay with MySQL, thus, the path of formalised training and
certification, taking potential software developers, and, thence,
potential customers, to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL.

Thus, whilst, if I chose that path, it might not be any great loss, if
others followed that path, and, went to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL, due
to the lack of formalised training and certification of PostgreSQL
skills, it would be a loss of potential usage and acceptance, by
PostgreSQL, kind of like PostgreSQL shooting itself in its feet.

- --
UC

- --
Open Source Solutions 4U, LLC 2570 Fleetwood Drive
Phone: +1 650 872 2425 San Bruno, CA 94066
Cell: +1 650 302 2405 United States
Fax: +1 650 872 2417
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Derrick Betts wrote:

I have a table with 10,000 rows. We have an application that parses a *.csv
file and uploads the data to the database table. The csv parser takes the
column numbers form the csv file and matches the column numbers to the field
positions in the DB table.

Now, I have to change the position of a column in the DB to match the csv
parser. I have a column in position 28 that I need to move to position 7.

Anyone know how to do that?

You could DROP and re-CREATE the table.

CREATE TABLE tmp AS SELECT col1, col3, col2 FROM mytab;
DROP TABLE mytab;
ALTER TABLE tmp RENAME TO mytab;

_BUT_: You need to take care of special cases like UNIQUE & FOREIGN KEYs
etc., i.e. usually you need a better CREATE clause than this easy example.

Thanks,
Derrick

HTH
--
e-Trolley Sayegh & John, Nabil Sayegh
Tel.: 0700 etrolley /// 0700 38765539
Fax.: +49 69 8299381-8
PGP : http://www.e-trolley.de

Bret,

Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can.

I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation.
Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design
through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just
pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we
are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of
data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL
server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the
free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1
person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with
PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to
be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access.
Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the
server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL.

I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the
concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through "Greek". I
need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and
have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some
strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for
something that will "sort of" apply to what we are doing in the office.
So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training.

In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" book (I have used the
series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the
need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far
as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I
used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want
someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can
learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be
asking as many questions on the list server as I can.

Cheers,

Amy Young
Sr. Revenue Analyst
Memphis, TN

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Bret Busby
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM
To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Hi,

Why worry? I'm sure that most of the guys in this list didn't have
dedicated PostgreSQL training (I didn't for sure).
You have lots of tutorials and (not to forget) a great documentation set
on the Postgres website.
There are also the mailing lists with people who like to help you. And
remember: in a open source community, you'll never be alone ;-)

Cheers!

Wim

Amy Young wrote:

Dear Amy Young ,

You will get full support from this PostgreSQL community but before
asking question please do add some common things like
My System Configuration is :
OS Blah
GCC compiler More Blah
PostgreSQL server Version Even More Blah
PostgreSQL data path /mydir/myblah/data
And yes If you are using PHP or Perl for data representation their full
details

And then state your full problem / question with steps if possible

Here we are to help you , am I right guys :-) and Mr. Bruce are
you listening

Regards,
V Kashyap.

Yes I did that and lost all the connections to my sequences.

Tom

On 10 Dec 2003 at 13:16, Nabil Sayegh wrote:

Bret.....

The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications,
like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I
understand, similarly, internationally recognised.

In my experience these have less to do with being proficient at a
disipline and more to do with marketing (of the individual holding the
certificate and of the application). The people here are more doers than
marketers.

That being said, PostgreSQL could sure use some more marketing.

My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people,
and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which
she develops.

Sounds like there is room for YOU and your wife could get involved in
setting up and administering some kind of PorstgreSQL certification
program! I have no idea if this would be feasible in the PostgreSQL
community or not, and I've read here that Red Hat is doing just that with
their dialect of the PostgreSQL server (maybe somebody else can
elaborate).

As far as books, I just know returned a book to the library, 'Learn SQL
in 14 days' or something similiar (sorry, don't remember the author)
and the concepts presented there (which includes triggers and
procedures, etc.) are transferrable to any SQL database.

There are some good PostgreSQL specific books, too (including Bruce
Momjian's). If you think there is a need for a basic starter's guide to
PostgreSQL you might put one together and offer it (for money, or
otherwise!).

You are right in that PostgreSQL could benefit from more marketing.

The world is your oyster!

brew

==========================================================================
Strange Brew (brew@theMode.com)
Check out my Musician's Online Database Exchange (The MODE Pages)
http://www.TheMode.com
==========================================================================

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is

I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all,
some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are
in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't
generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second
group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs
it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A
small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then
doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 12:03, Stephan Szabo wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is

I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all,
some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are
in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't
generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second
group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs
it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A
small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then
doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.

Please be aware there are several companies that do provide training,
check the main website for examples. Furthermore Bruce Momjian does a
semi-annual training class himself, and has mentioned that people are
not exactly beating a path to his door. Just because the
training/certification is not centralized and dictated doesn't mean it
is not available.

Furthermore if you're really interested in learning about databases and
want some type of certification, I'd strongly recommend learning oracle
or even m$ before going to my$ql, both are more fundamentally oriented
toward postgresql. Actually I'd earmark your training dollars for
something like the Open Source conference, which usually provides a good
chunk of information.

As far as books go, I think the best book on the market right now is
probably Korry Douglas' book "PostgreSQL", but I think you'll find most
people here recommend you read books like SQL for Smarties (Celko),
Practical Issues in Database Management (Pascal), or An Introduction to
Database Systems (Date). Much to the chagrin of Herr Fabian, we aren't
just here to push a product, we want users to be educated.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Stephan Szabo wrote:

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:03:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com>
To: Bret Busby <bret@busby.net>
Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is

I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all,
some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are
in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't
generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second
group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs
it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A
small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then
doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.

The resistance to which I referred, is exemplified in the discussion
that I cited, from the google search.

cf the thread "PostgreSQL certification", started by the query posted
by Diogo Biazus, dated 24 October 2003, as found from the list archives.

I was slightly incorrect, however, in that that thread was on the
ADVOCACY list, not the GENERAL list as I had previously mentioned.
However, it would have been found, by using the google seartch that I
cited in my previous posting. Only four results to the google search,
were displayed; the PostgreSQL mailing list discussion that I cited,
being the first displayed result.

The basis for the resistance, was apparently not a cost or time based
opposition, but, opposition to certification itself; opposition to the
concepts of certification and standardisation of skills assessment.

Reading the messages of that thread, would lead to a better
understanding of the opposition to certification.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
....................................................

Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com> writes:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is

I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
and certification costs money.

I think there *would* be resistance to labeling anything as "official
PostgreSQL certification", mainly because of the problem of who gets
to decide which things are "official". No one will object if companies
set up training and skills-testing programs about PostgreSQL, they just
can't claim to be officially blessed by the project. As a comparison
point, Red Hat's RHCE certifications for Linux seem to be pretty well
respected, but no one thinks they are officially blessed by Linus or
anything like that. Red Hat is the only name standing behind them.
(Disclaimer: I have no reason to think that Red Hat might offer any
such certification program for Postgres in the foreseeable future.
Too bad.)

MySQL is more able than we are to set up "official" training and
certification programs, because there isn't any doubt who owns the
right to do so: MySQL AB. But whether having one company control the
project is a net benefit is pretty dubious IMHO.

regards, tom lane

MySQL is more able than we are to set up "official" training and
certification programs, because there isn't any doubt who owns the
right to do so: MySQL AB. But whether having one company control the
project is a net benefit is pretty dubious IMHO.

If it ain't broke...

On 10 Dec 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

Date: 10 Dec 2003 14:06:45 -0500
From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com>
Cc: Bret Busby <bret@busby.net>, pgsql-novice@postgresql.org,
"pgsql-general@postgresql.org" <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 12:03, Stephan Szabo wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is

I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all,
some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are
in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't
generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second
group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs
it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A
small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then
doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.

Please be aware there are several companies that do provide training,
check the main website for examples. Furthermore Bruce Momjian does a
semi-annual training class himself, and has mentioned that people are
not exactly beating a path to his door. Just because the
training/certification is not centralized and dictated doesn't mean it
is not available.

Furthermore if you're really interested in learning about databases and
want some type of certification, I'd strongly recommend learning oracle
or even m$ before going to my$ql, both are more fundamentally oriented
toward postgresql. Actually I'd earmark your training dollars for
something like the Open Source conference, which usually provides a good
chunk of information.

As far as books go, I think the best book on the market right now is
probably Korry Douglas' book "PostgreSQL", but I think you'll find most
people here recommend you read books like SQL for Smarties (Celko),
Practical Issues in Database Management (Pascal), or An Introduction to
Database Systems (Date). Much to the chagrin of Herr Fabian, we aren't
just here to push a product, we want users to be educated.

Robert Treat

Regarding the PostgreSQL training that is provided by companies, a
problem with that, as it exists, is that, insofar as I am aware, that
training is not standardised, standardisation of training, being a
probable requirement of formal certification and standardised skills
assessment.

Another problem, is that the companies, and, Bruce Momjian, provide
their individual training courses, but, they are where they are, and I
am where I am, and, there are interested people, scattered over the
world. Thus, Bruce Momjian, for example, may be a good trainer, but, as
I am here, and he is wherever he is, "and ne'er the twain shall meet".

Here in Perth (Armadale is a suburb of Perth), Western Australia, for
example, there are institutions that provide training and certification,
in the RHCE, LPI, MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, etc, courses, which are standardised
courses, which, as I have previously mentioned, involve standardised
skillset training and assessments. But, this is a (relatively) small
city, of only about a million or so people, in a remote corner of the
world, and, we have no dedicated companies providing PostgreSQL
training, which appears (from what I have seen so far) to be available
only in the USA.

Thus, for those training and certification courses, that I have
mentioned as being available here, they are available to me, and,
likely, to most (if not everyone) on these lists, and, they should be
at the same standards and levels of competency, and have the same
course content, regardless of location, due to the standardisation of
those courses and certifications. But, the PostgreSQL training, insofar
as I am ware, is both not standardised, and, completely localised.

Thus, if PostgreSQL training is available in any form (as in classes or
courses), where a person is, who is on one of these lists, another
person on these lists (such as me and others here), might not be able to
trundle off to Salt Lake City or New York for the day, to attend such
training courses, and, thus, the training courses are unavailable, and,
using those two locations, the training that is available in Salt Lake
City, may be different, in content (as in topics), and, in quality, and,
in level of competency.

So, for example, in Salt Lake City, a person might have only PostgreSQL
training courses available, that involve installing and configuring
PostgreSQL, in New York, a person might have courses that involve
developing web applications using PostgreSQL, and, wherever he is, Bruce
Momjian might offer courses that result in becoming a PostgreSQL Guru.

These are reasons that formalised, structured, standardised, training
and certifications, could make it much more accessible, and, simpler, to
obtain recognisable PostgreSQL skills, for which accreditation and
thence formal recognition, could be obtained.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
....................................................

Quoting Bret Busby <bret@busby.net>:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Stephan Szabo wrote:

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:03:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com>
To: Bret Busby <bret@busby.net>
Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:

Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is

I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all,
some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are
in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't
generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second
group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs
it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A
small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then
doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.

The resistance to which I referred, is exemplified in the discussion
that I cited, from the google search.

cf the thread "PostgreSQL certification", started by the query posted
by Diogo Biazus, dated 24 October 2003, as found from the list archives.

I was slightly incorrect, however, in that that thread was on the
ADVOCACY list, not the GENERAL list as I had previously mentioned.
However, it would have been found, by using the google seartch that I
cited in my previous posting. Only four results to the google search,
were displayed; the PostgreSQL mailing list discussion that I cited,
being the first displayed result.

The basis for the resistance, was apparently not a cost or time based
opposition, but, opposition to certification itself; opposition to the
concepts of certification and standardisation of skills assessment.

Reading the messages of that thread, would lead to a better
understanding of the opposition to certification.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
....................................................

Bret,

I think what the real religious argument here is that many, many people feel
"skills assessment" should NOT be linked to a product. It should in fact be
linked to the underlying material a product is designed to manipulate.

If someone is more of an academic, I seriously doubt that they are going to seek
certification in a product. 9 out of 10 times, someone like that is going to be
able to pick up a product manual and be off and running. However, if you are
new to the feild, 18-36 months at a tech school is going to be more appealing
than 48 to 60 months at a college. Lets not forget that human being want what
they want when they want it. Sooner for *most* people is better, especially
where money is involved,

The true motivation for certification is/was marketing. Its just a different
piece of paper- some people go to traditional educational institutions and some
people chase certification for these newer tech schools. Its all in the name of
being able to market oneself.

In one case however, education is product neutral which means you have a strong
base knowledge ready to be applied. So you build product knowledge from there.
In the other case, you learn products and in doing that you tend towards having
a strong base knowledge. Of course, products also come and go and change much
more frequently than the base knowlege.

I've instructed at the collegiate level and at a tech school so I'm not gonna
hate on either approach. What I've stressed is that a person should choose for
themselves which make the most sense. Like always the "best" thing is not black
or white its somewhat in the grey. Corporations are definitely starting to
understand this.

--
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

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