SCO Extortion

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

I'm currently one of the targets of SCO's linux licensing extortion
business plan, and am contemplating switching to one of the BSD's to
avoid any potential problems. I'm curious which BSD people prefer for
large scale databases and why. Any pointers as to which I should test out?

for the longest time, the BSDs have been split as:

FreeBSD - i386 rock solid
NetBSD - work on as many platforms as possible
OpenBSD - be as secure as possible

There is alot of code sharing between them all though, so, IMHO, alot of
it is personal preferences ... I've been using FreeBSD since '95, and
other then having a habit of finding (and, usually pushing) its limits,
I've been most happy with it ...

----
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--On Tuesday, January 20, 2004 14:06:35 -0800 "Gavin M. Roy" <gmr@ehpg.net>
wrote:

I'm currently one of the targets of SCO's linux licensing extortion
business plan, and am contemplating switching to one of the BSD's to
avoid any potential problems. I'm curious which BSD people prefer for
large scale databases and why. Any pointers as to which I should test
out?

I like FreeBSD. It's PORTS system is WONDERFUL!

LER

Thanks,

Gavin

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Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

Gavin

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 11:55, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

I'm currently one of the targets of SCO's linux licensing extortion
business plan, and am contemplating switching to one of the BSD's to
avoid any potential problems. I'm curious which BSD people prefer for
large scale databases and why. Any pointers as to which I should test out?

for the longest time, the BSDs have been split as:

FreeBSD - i386 rock solid
NetBSD - work on as many platforms as possible
OpenBSD - be as secure as possible

There is alot of code sharing between them all though, so, IMHO, alot of
it is personal preferences ... I've been using FreeBSD since '95, and
other then having a habit of finding (and, usually pushing) its limits,
I've been most happy with it ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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Of course SCO is planning to sue the BSD users, too, so it's not really
a solution.

Just ignore them :)

Stephen

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Stephen Robert Norris wrote:

Of course SCO is planning to sue the BSD users, too, so it's not really
a solution.

We figure that SCO will either be bought out, or go bankrupt, before we
have to worry about them :)

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

On Tue, Jan 20, 2004 at 06:16:46PM -0800, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

i've built several billing systems for long distance companies using pgsql
on FreeBSD since '97. i've found them to be quite stable and robust,
including uniprocessor and SMP, using raw big disks, hardware RAID, and also
the incumbent vinum software RAID.

i've found upgrading the core OS, as well as upgrading pgsql and other apps,
to be fairly clean and troublefree.

Gavin

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

I'm currently one of the targets of SCO's linux licensing extortion
business plan, and am contemplating switching to one of the BSD's to
avoid any potential problems. I'm curious which BSD people prefer for
large scale databases and why. Any pointers as to which I should test
out?

for the longest time, the BSDs have been split as:

FreeBSD - i386 rock solid
NetBSD - work on as many platforms as possible
OpenBSD - be as secure as possible

There is alot of code sharing between them all though, so, IMHO, alot of
it is personal preferences ... I've been using FreeBSD since '95, and
other then having a habit of finding (and, usually pushing) its limits,
I've been most happy with it ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

Again, its pretty much a personal opinion ... we use FreeBSD for all our
PgSQL work, and have several clients that are doing so also, and have
been most happy with it ..

Again, you have to consider that with the code-sharing that happens,
drivers and such tend to be very similar, if not identical ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd

for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

Fact: OpenBSD is not ready for SMP systems (yet). That leaves you with 2
choices left (Free- and Net-).

Opinion: I'd go with FreeBSD because I'd expect better performance and
more help available from other people (since it's more common).

Bye, Chris.

On 21/01/2004 04:21 Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Stephen Robert Norris wrote:

Of course SCO is planning to sue the BSD users, too, so it's not really
a solution.

We figure that SCO will either be bought out, or go bankrupt, before we
have to worry about them :)

If they tried their scam on me, I'd report them to the police. There are
laws against that sort of thing in the UK. By a strange coincidence, SCO
don't have an office this country...

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+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
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Business |
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http://www.thomas-micro-systems-ltd.co.uk   |
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Jim Mercer wrote:

On Tue, Jan 20, 2004 at 06:16:46PM -0800, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

i've built several billing systems for long distance companies using pgsql
on FreeBSD since '97. i've found them to be quite stable and robust,
including uniprocessor and SMP, using raw big disks, hardware RAID, and also
the incumbent vinum software RAID.

i've found upgrading the core OS, as well as upgrading pgsql and other apps,
to be fairly clean and troublefree.

Since this is a "me too" kinda thread, I'll just say "me too".

Not nearly as long a history, only been working with PostgreSQL for about 2
years, but I've been relying on FreeBSD since 98/99, and it's never let me
down.

Not saying that NetBSD and OpenBSD aren't great systems as well, I just
started with FreeBSD, and I've never had need for anything else.

Gavin

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

I'm currently one of the targets of SCO's linux licensing extortion
business plan, and am contemplating switching to one of the BSD's to
avoid any potential problems. I'm curious which BSD people prefer for
large scale databases and why. Any pointers as to which I should test
out?

for the longest time, the BSDs have been split as:

FreeBSD - i386 rock solid
NetBSD - work on as many platforms as possible
OpenBSD - be as secure as possible

There is alot of code sharing between them all though, so, IMHO, alot of
it is personal preferences ... I've been using FreeBSD since '95, and
other then having a habit of finding (and, usually pushing) its limits,
I've been most happy with it ...

--
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com

In article <20040121005127.T930@ganymede.hub.org>,
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org> writes:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

Again, its pretty much a personal opinion ... we use FreeBSD for all our
PgSQL work, and have several clients that are doing so also, and have
been most happy with it ..

Again, you have to consider that with the code-sharing that happens,
drivers and such tend to be very similar, if not identical ...

Moreover, what should prevent the SCO scumbags from molesting *BSD
users if they would succeed in destroying Linux?

There might be technical reasons to move from Linux to *BSD, but the
SCO amok run should not be a reason to do so.

Moreover, what should prevent the SCO scumbags from molesting *BSD
users if they would succeed in destroying Linux?

There might be technical reasons to move from Linux to *BSD, but the
SCO amok run should not be a reason to do so.

I agree with this. SCO has really done nothing but prove that Linux is a
threat to many companies
business model. They are in a loosing fight with IBM, RedHat and Novell.
If you read Groklaw
or just research their claims (claiming copyright on code that Linus
wrote himself), you will see
that it is a wild goose chase.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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My problem is the threat from SCO is not from the bleachers so to speak,
but direct in writing :(
http://www.gavinroy.com/~gavinr/sco_threat.gif

Gavin

Harald Fuchs wrote:

They have no case on this. The abi files were written by Linus Torvalds
himself, not SCO.

tell them to show you the EXACT lines in the abi that are theirs. If they
can't produce it, tell them to bugger off. If they do take you to court,
a first year clerk could tear them apart with no preparation whatsoever.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

My $.02.

I've been following the SCO case very closely since the beginning (I
live about 10 miles from SCO headquarters, used to work for Novell, and
am a big user of Linux and other OSS). My advice would be to wait
before making any moves, here's why:

1) SCO has yet to prove anything.
2) SCO has also threatened to go after BSD, so if SCO wins (and that's
a real big IF), BSD is no safe harbor.
3) SCO and Novell are currently in dispute over ownership of the
copyrights in question in the letter you received (SCO sued Novell over
just that issue yesterday). They cannot sue anyone until that lawsuit
is finished, which could take years (okay, they COULD sue, but most
likely, it would be postponed until the ownership of the copyrights is
cleared up).
4) Even if they do win, the infringing code can be removed, and they
can't really sue anyone for running code prior to them telling you what
it is (contrary to their public statements). And do you really think
those 5 header files constitutes $699 in damages per processor?
5) Your company is only one of 1000 that received that letter. There
must be more lucrative companies for them to go after first (companies
with HUGE linux deployments, such as Google). Not to mention that
there threatening many more companies outside that 1000 overseas.
6) Even if you are sued, there are over $4 million of legal defense
funds currently in existence to help fight such a battle. If you did
happen to be first sued, then the Linux community (including Novell,
Red Hat, and IBM) and all that money would rally to your side to make
an example of SCO.

Certainly look into all of your options, I mean, after all, you may
research and want to go to BSD on its own merits! IANAL, so take my
statements as such, but I wouldn't spend too much time on it at LEAST
until the Novell lawsuit gets moving and you know more where the chips
will fall.

Adam Ruth

On Jan 21, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

--On Wednesday, January 21, 2004 13:38:10 -0700 "scott.marlowe"
<scott.marlowe@ihs.com> wrote:

They have no case on this. The abi files were written by Linus Torvalds
himself, not SCO.

tell them to show you the EXACT lines in the abi that are theirs. If
they can't produce it, tell them to bugger off. If they do take you to
court, a first year clerk could tear them apart with no preparation
whatsoever.

AND, read http://www.groklaw.net/ for some ongoing commentary on what's
going on.

LER

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Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749

Gavin M. Roy wrote:

My problem is the threat from SCO is not from the bleachers so to speak,
but direct in writing :(
http://www.gavinroy.com/~gavinr/sco_threat.gif

That's a threat that SCO will take illegal action against you.

It's the same as Luigi from The Family calling by to remind you that if
you don't pay the insurance premium, bad things could happen to your
office or your person.

Ask them to detail:
- The infringing code (and exactly how it infringes)
- The ancestry of the code (where they got theirs from)
- The licence that they expect you to sign (and note that
their licence does not stop them from suing you further
for using Linux, nor does it stop anyone else from suing
you for using code that they've licenced to you)
- The terms and conditions that accompany the licence
- Their support policy
- Their upgrade policy

Make sure all the documentation is signed. That makes it easier to whack
them with it if they take you to court.

Check out these names in relation to the SCO case: Linus Torvalds and
Eben Moglen. No doubt Eric Scott Raymond has made some comment on it.
And as everyone else has stated, catch up with the latest at Groklaw.

In the meantime, treat the SCO complaint as seriously as you'd treat a
drunk cop who's just pulled you over and is trying to charge you with
posession of drugs. He has no case, you just have to survive the
immediate encounter. Don't sign anything, don't hand over any money,
make no representation that you intend to agree with their demands, just
keep them talking until you have enough evidence to hurt them with.

Especially don't sign or pay for any "licence", since SCO is going to
use the money and the fact as leverage (especially in court!) to get
other, bigger companies to cave in to their demands.

you should invite him in to talk, and let him know that you are
investigating drop'ng Linux altogether and are curious as to what
SCO/UnixServer could offer ... basically, tell him you are looking at
options, and take up his time on 'the sales pitch' :)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

My problem is the threat from SCO is not from the bleachers so to speak,
but direct in writing :(
http://www.gavinroy.com/~gavinr/sco_threat.gif

Gavin

Harald Fuchs wrote:

In article <20040121005127.T930@ganymede.hub.org>,
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org> writes:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

Again, its pretty much a personal opinion ... we use FreeBSD for all our
PgSQL work, and have several clients that are doing so also, and have
been most happy with it ..

Again, you have to consider that with the code-sharing that happens,
drivers and such tend to be very similar, if not identical ...

Moreover, what should prevent the SCO scumbags from molesting *BSD
users if they would succeed in destroying Linux?

There might be technical reasons to move from Linux to *BSD, but the
SCO amok run should not be a reason to do so.

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Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Oh, I like that added touch :)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

you should invite him in to talk, and let him know that you are
investigating drop'ng Linux altogether and are curious as to what
SCO/UnixServer could offer ... basically, tell him you are looking at
options, and take up his time on 'the sales pitch' :)

But before you do this, rent a temporary office in the worst part of
town, and put up a bunch
of Voodoo relics. When he comes in, make your first question:

Are you enlightened?

;)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

My problem is the threat from SCO is not from the bleachers so to speak,
but direct in writing :(
http://www.gavinroy.com/~gavinr/sco_threat.gif

Gavin

Harald Fuchs wrote:

In article <20040121005127.T930@ganymede.hub.org>,
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org> writes:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I should also mention I use freebsd
for other stuff, but I am mainly asking in peoples experience, which is
the best for PostgreSQL to live on specifically. In terms of a nice smp
high end scsi system. Sorry for the lack of specifics on that before.

Again, its pretty much a personal opinion ... we use FreeBSD for all our
PgSQL work, and have several clients that are doing so also, and have
been most happy with it ..

Again, you have to consider that with the code-sharing that happens,
drivers and such tend to be very similar, if not identical ...

Moreover, what should prevent the SCO scumbags from molesting *BSD
users if they would succeed in destroying Linux?

There might be technical reasons to move from Linux to *BSD, but the
SCO amok run should not be a reason to do so.

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Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664