Re: PHP or JSP? That is the question.

At the risk of being violently flamed...

You might consider ASP.NET/C#:
- It is a REAL programming language, like Java
- It's almost as easy-to-use as PHP
- The IDE and "development paradigm" are superb, superb, superb: they
basically borrowed Delphi's IDE (and stole Delphi's architect, Anders
Hjelsberg)
- Deployment is astonishingly simple.

I suspect that there is no faster and easier way to get applications
completed then by using ASP.NET. The C#-only version of Visual Studio
is only $100, and it's not missing anything that's important to most
people - but you'll also need IIS (e.g., Win XP Pro). There's also a
stripped-down freeware version, the MS Web Matrix. IIS costs more than
freeware, but not a whole lot: and is very easy to use and live with.

if (thinking of flaming me)
{
I also think that PostgreSQL is the best database around;
I hated MS programming products from VB4 until .NET. Standard ASP
was/is awful;
}

Good luck!

Al Cohen
www.alcohen.com

Andrew Falanga wrote:

Not reading the newsgroup, I missed the original. But here's my two
cents.

First, do not use Microsoft products on a web server unless you want to
spend all your time applying patches and cleaning up the results of your
server being used as a warez site. The initial setup might be easy, but
the ongoing maintenance will kill you. Not to mention the fact that it
doesn't make good business sense to pay for something (web server +
programming language) when you can get equivalent functionality for
free.

Beyond that, the question is which technology to use. The answer is
"what do your developers and sysadmins know?" If you have Java
developers, then use it. If you have PHP developers, use it. There's
an obvious limit to this (i.e. "I have cobol developers), but anybody
reasonably trained in modern computing will be able to use any of these
languages to accomplish the goal, so the differentiation is the startup
time.

Michael
--
Michael Darrin Chaney
mdchaney@michaelchaney.com
http://www.michaelchaney.com/

brought to my attention is that PHP is natively supported by Apache
and JSP requires a separate interpreter (Jakarta or whatever).

There is more to life than Apache and there are much better Java solutions
than Jakarta! If you want to go the Java way, do yourself a favour and use
http://www.orionserver.com/ It's the fastest, most reliable and most
compliant of all the servlet engines out there.

By the sounds of it, you are a beginner in any technology. If you are
thinking of persuing this as a carreer, Java is a good choice as Java
developers have much more choice of jobs (also non-web related!) and tend
to fetch more (_much_ more, in this town anyway) money. That is if you are
going to be any good, of course! ;-)

But I don't like Java too much for web apps and wouldn't recomend it to
any beginner that wants quick and reliable results! My favourite
technology (and no doubt that of many on this list) is AOLserver
(http://aolserver.com) It's fast, reliable and uses the wonderful Tcl
programming language that I can recomend to any beginner; it is clean,
simple and without many pitfalls or a dozen different commands for doing
essentialy the same thing. (Unlike PHP...) It doesn't make you popular on
Slashdot though, if that is what you are after. :)

Good luck!

Bas.

In terms of getting a page up and working, then PHP likely to be
quicker, as its pretty easy to learn.
Java kind of demands you learn more "machinary" before doing much, but
it may provide you with more capability once you get comfortable with it.

In terms of installing and configuring, well PHP is just an Apache
module, so it is reasonably easy to get going.
To get JSP's going you really need to use a servlet engine (e.g Jakarta
Tomcat) - you dont *actually* need Apache httpd at all in this case
(there are reasons to have it tho, and there is an Apache module to link
'em - mod_jk or mod_jk2).

To further confuse, there are a number open source J2EE engines that
offer more functionality than Tomcat - (Jboss and Jetty come immediately
to mind).

Any of these would actually be a good choice - hope I have helped :-)

regards

Mark

Andrew Falanga wrote:

Bas Scheffers wrote:

brought to my attention is that PHP is natively supported by Apache
and JSP requires a separate interpreter (Jakarta or whatever).

There is more to life than Apache and there are much better Java solutions
than Jakarta! If you want to go the Java way, do yourself a favour and use
http://www.orionserver.com/ It's the fastest, most reliable and most
compliant of all the servlet engines out there.

By the sounds of it, you are a beginner in any technology. If you are
thinking of persuing this as a carreer, Java is a good choice as Java
developers have much more choice of jobs (also non-web related!) and tend
to fetch more (_much_ more, in this town anyway) money. That is if you are
going to be any good, of course! ;-)

But I don't like Java too much for web apps and wouldn't recomend it to
any beginner that wants quick and reliable results! My favourite
technology (and no doubt that of many on this list) is AOLserver
(http://aolserver.com) It's fast, reliable and uses the wonderful Tcl
programming language that I can recomend to any beginner; it is clean,
simple and without many pitfalls or a dozen different commands for doing
essentialy the same thing. (Unlike PHP...) It doesn't make you popular on
Slashdot though, if that is what you are after. :)

Good luck!

Bas.

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As far as server support goes, apache doesn't have native support for
php (hence mod_php).
If your are running a linux distribution that happens to have mod_php
support set up you are good. Manually configuration on the other hand
can be a huge task for newbs. Installing jakarta on the other hand is
just extracting the tar file, and setting the CLASSPATH. thats it.

finding online help/forums/examples is a _lot_ better with php. Most
jsp/servlet developers have a java background, often it is assumes that
you know java.

I am running four jakarta/tomat servers with no problems. Stability is
great.

It may be added to the Mark's points bellow that PHP has more libraries in
the out of the box setup (like regular expressions) but PHP is interpreted
(right?) while JSP is compiled: when I was making decision I have chosen JSP
because of "compiled" criteria: I do like the idea to catch as many bugs as
possible at compile time and rather hate "interpreted" development.

In terms of installing and configuring, well PHP is just an Apache
module, so it is reasonably easy to get going.

But once JSP starts running - it does run. One has to invest into this
setup/configuration job once.

Brgds, Laimis

I heartily second this opinion in favor of AOLServer. It, like tcl, is not sexy, but it works so well for web based PostgreSQL applications that a rational analysis of tools has to include it.

In addition to Bas' comments, I would add that installation and configuration is effortless, it has connection pooling, it scales pretty well ;^)

Its only shortcoming is in virtual server usage and I understand version 4 corrects that, although I have not graduated to it yet.

An added bonus is that your web scripting and database procedures can be written in the same language.

Ian Harding
Programmer/Analyst II
Tacoma-Pierce County Health Department
iharding@tpchd.org
Phone: (253) 798-3549
Pager: (253) 754-0002

"Bas Scheffers" <bas@scheffers.net> 03/23/04 12:40AM >>>

brought to my attention is that PHP is natively supported by Apache
and JSP requires a separate interpreter (Jakarta or whatever).

There is more to life than Apache and there are much better Java solutions
than Jakarta! If you want to go the Java way, do yourself a favour and use
http://www.orionserver.com/ It's the fastest, most reliable and most
compliant of all the servlet engines out there.

By the sounds of it, you are a beginner in any technology. If you are
thinking of persuing this as a carreer, Java is a good choice as Java
developers have much more choice of jobs (also non-web related!) and tend
to fetch more (_much_ more, in this town anyway) money. That is if you are
going to be any good, of course! ;-)

But I don't like Java too much for web apps and wouldn't recomend it to
any beginner that wants quick and reliable results! My favourite
technology (and no doubt that of many on this list) is AOLserver
(http://aolserver.com) It's fast, reliable and uses the wonderful Tcl
programming language that I can recomend to any beginner; it is clean,
simple and without many pitfalls or a dozen different commands for doing
essentialy the same thing. (Unlike PHP...) It doesn't make you popular on
Slashdot though, if that is what you are after. :)

Good luck!

Bas.

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TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

On Tue, 2004-03-23 at 01:40, Bas Scheffers wrote:

There is more to life than Apache and there are much better Java solutions
than Jakarta! If you want to go the Java way, do yourself a favour and use
http://www.orionserver.com/ It's the fastest, most reliable and most
compliant of all the servlet engines out there.

It's always funny how everyone says that about their particular servlet
engine, yet every benchmark declares a different winner (if any). :)

http://www.webperformanceinc.com/library/ServletReport/index.html

For $1500, I don't see any big value in Orion over Tomcat ($0) or Resin
($500), especially since Orion appears to be behind both Resin and
Tomcat with JSDK 2.3 and JSP 1.2.

lnd@hnit.is wrote:

It may be added to the Mark's points bellow that PHP has more libraries in
the out of the box setup (like regular expressions) but PHP is interpreted
(right?) while JSP is compiled: when I was making decision I have chosen JSP
because of "compiled" criteria: I do like the idea to catch as many bugs as
possible at compile time and rather hate "interpreted" development.

Sorry but your not correct.

Java is a binary 'interpreted' language. Although it is binary it is not
a binary exucutable
native on almost all platforms. The java executable interprets the java
binary code and
translates it into native machine executable code. Since the binary data
is tokenized it is
more efficient and has already had it syntax and scopes verified so less
processing is
required making it faster once it has been compiled.

One of the bigger advantages of JSP is the two way data flow capability.
With the
java application running at the client end providing the interface, and
the java servlet
running at the server end doing the I/O, JSP can make a more fluid
feeling interface.
With PHP once the page is rendered it is static.

I did not know that AOLserver was TCL based, but that is if I remember
correctly
simmilar to JSP, but I don't remember it being precompiled. I
experimented with
a tcl module and appletts years ago, but I didn't have an application
for it back then.

I do have a DB application that needs to be able to quickly "flip"
between a selection
records now. I have not decided which way to go yet.

In terms of installing and configuring, well PHP is just an Apache
module, so it is reasonably easy to get going.

But once JSP starts running - it does run. One has to invest into this
setup/configuration job once.

Brgds, Laimis

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Mark Kirkwood
Sent: 23. mars 2004 09:28
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PHP or JSP? That is the question.

In terms of getting a page up and working, then PHP likely to be
quicker, as its pretty easy to learn.
Java kind of demands you learn more "machinary" before doing
much, but
it may provide you with more capability once you get
comfortable with it.

In terms of installing and configuring, well PHP is just an Apache
module, so it is reasonably easy to get going.
To get JSP's going you really need to use a servlet engine
(e.g Jakarta
Tomcat) - you dont *actually* need Apache httpd at all in this case
(there are reasons to have it tho, and there is an Apache
module to link
'em - mod_jk or mod_jk2).

To further confuse, there are a number open source J2EE engines that
offer more functionality than Tomcat - (Jboss and Jetty come
immediately
to mind).

Any of these would actually be a good choice - hope I have helped :-)

regards

Mark

Andrew Falanga wrote:

So, what I'm wondering is, which platform offers better

(more stable,

ease of use, ease of maintainability, etc.) support for developing
such an application. One consideration that has been brought to my
attention is that PHP is natively supported by Apache and

JSP requires

a separate interpreter (Jakarta or whatever).

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.

--
Guy Fraser
Network Administrator
The Internet Centre
780-450-6787 , 1-888-450-6787

There is a fine line between genius and lunacy, fear not, walk the
line with pride. Not all things will end up as you wanted, but you
will certainly discover things the meek and timid will miss out on.

Cott,

You are right, for just a servlet engine, Orion doesn't add too much value
or be much faster than the free alternative, other then it being quite
nice to use. Most other benchmarks I have seen were for EJB performce,
something wasn't done for this test. In EJB use, Orion wipes the floor
with most competitors, especial the free one! (JBoss)

Guy,
I have no idea what you mean when you say: "With the java application
running at the client end providing the interface, and the java servlet
running at the server end doing the I/O, JSP can make a more fluid feeling
interface." How do you mean? A JSP page on the browser is as static as a
PHP one.

As for Tcl, ever since 8.0, it compiles the code into bytecode at runtime,
which does speed up the use of procedures, but it being a higher level
language than java and not as strictly typed, it is not as fast in all
cases. But for a web app in a fast enviroment like AOLserver, it is
unlikely you will see any performance difference, there are too many
factors influencing that and your actual code on the page is a tiny
fraction. (database access being the worst offender)

Laimis,
With regards to PHP having more libs out of the box and easy to use, you
are right. But Java 1.4 has built in regex as well, and a nice one too!
Most other APIs are available and all you usualy need to do is add the jar
to the classpath. You say: "I do like the idea to catch as many bugs as
possible at compile". I say: I use both methods and have to say it doesn't
matter much. In any case, in testing you have to always test every
possibilty wether you compile or not (NullPointerException, anyone?) and
quite often changing the code and hitting "refresh" in your browser is
quicker than recompile+deploy+server restart. And as for the much touted
"type safety" of Java: anything the user sends in via the browser is a
string, which you will have to convert to integers, booleans, etc. So
there goes most of that argument, the only data you have no control over
is likely to be the culprit in a mismatch!

So in my book neither enviroment is superior except in very special cases,
and the one in question here doesn't seem to be one of those. The thing
that mostly influences performance and maintainability is the way you
write the code. In the case of Java, it forces you to be stricter, but
once you have coded yourself into a corner and realise it is the wrong
one, it is hard to get on track again. At least with PHP/AOLserver, you
have the option of referencing pretty much any variable from anywhere,
which, especialy for beginners, can be a real project saver at times! :)

Bas.

This is an example of what I mean :

1) Fill out form to get data.
2) Server responds with java and set of records.
3) Java applet displays one of the records and with out further
intervention from the
server, tha java applet can be used to scroll back and forth through the
other records.

Because data from the set of records is now at the client side,
manipulation of the
data seems faster to the end user than retrieving each record one at a
time every
time they want to move back or forth through the search results. This
allows the
records to be nicely formatted and displayed one at a time rather than
as a table.

Bas Scheffers wrote:
...snip...

Guy,
I have no idea what you mean when you say: "With the java application
running at the client end providing the interface, and the java servlet
running at the server end doing the I/O, JSP can make a more fluid feeling
interface." How do you mean? A JSP page on the browser is as static as a
PHP one.

As for Tcl, ever since 8.0, it compiles the code into bytecode at runtime,
which does speed up the use of procedures, but it being a higher level
language than java and not as strictly typed, it is not as fast in all
cases. But for a web app in a fast enviroment like AOLserver, it is
unlikely you will see any performance difference, there are too many
factors influencing that and your actual code on the page is a tiny
fraction. (database access being the worst offender)

...snip...

--
Guy Fraser

Guy,

1) Fill out form to get data.
2) Server responds with java and set of records.
3) Java applet displays one of the records and with out further

I see what you mean now, a business application in a browsers. It's
usefull for that - my company has written various trading/market data apps
that way for banking clients - but for a public website, html and forms
are a better solution.

Cheers,
Bas.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Bas Scheffers wrote:

Guy,

1) Fill out form to get data.
2) Server responds with java and set of records.
3) Java applet displays one of the records and with out further

I see what you mean now, a business application in a browsers. It's
usefull for that - my company has written various trading/market data apps
that way for banking clients - but for a public website, html and forms
are a better solution.

Note that if you want to write straight client-server apps, tcl/tk and
php-gtk both work pretty well too.

scott.marlowe said:

Note that if you want to write straight client-server apps, tcl/tk and
php-gtk both work pretty well too.

<sarcasm>
Yes, but there are two fundemantal flaws with proposing that as a solution
to a banking client:

1) They will not accept your tender as it is not buzzword compliant and
2) You will need 1/3 team size that does it in 1/3 of the time, which means
less "billable hours" and re-inforces point 1 as banking clients like
expensive, over-engineered projects.
</sarcasm>

Bas.

"Bas Scheffers" <bas@scheffers.net> writes:

2) You will need 1/3 team size that does it in 1/3 of the time, which means
less "billable hours" and re-inforces point 1 as banking clients like
expensive, over-engineered projects.

(Obnit: "fewer" for countable objects like "hours")

</sarcasm>

I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?

--
greg

I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?

Sarcasm: "A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language
and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule."

The banks, an corporations that act just like them, being the "victim",
obviously...

Bas.

Bas Scheffers wrote:

I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?

Sarcasm: "A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language
and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule."

The banks, an corporations that act just like them, being the "victim",
obviously...

I think Greg should have written:

<sarcasm>
I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?
</sarcasm>

Mike Mascari

scott.marlowe wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Bas Scheffers wrote:

Guy,

1) Fill out form to get data.
2) Server responds with java and set of records.
3) Java applet displays one of the records and with out further

I see what you mean now, a business application in a browsers. It's
usefull for that - my company has written various trading/market data apps
that way for banking clients - but for a public website, html and forms
are a better solution.

Note that if you want to write straight client-server apps, tcl/tk and
php-gtk both work pretty well too.

I have never written a gui based app for Windows or Macs and since the
application would have to be cross platform compatable it would have to
run on Windows, Macs as well as Linux and other Unix variants. That is
too much work for me to do by myself. About the only alternative would
be to write the Client in Java {Not that MS cruft, but real Sun Java} then
anything woth a Java VM would work. I could then write the server in
what ever I wanted {probably C}.

This is way off the topic, though. The question was about PHP and JSP not
gtk client/server application efficiencies.

--
Guy Fraser

On Friday 26 March 2004 00:43, Mike Mascari wrote:

Bas Scheffers wrote:

I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?

Sarcasm: "A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language
and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule."

The banks, an corporations that act just like them, being the "victim",
obviously...

I think Greg should have written:

<sarcasm>
I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?
</sarcasm>

<pedantic>
Actually Mike, I'd suggest it probably should have been
<irony>
I'm confused, where was the sarcasm?
</irony>
</pendatic>

--
Richard Huxton
Archonet Ltd