7.4 features list

Bruce Momjian wrote:

When we started on 7.4 development, I was hoping for three major
features:

o PITR (point-in-time recovery)
o Win32 port
o Master-slave Postgres-R

Now, the last one isn't going to happen because we didn't get any
funding for the replication guys. The first one is being worked on by
Patrick at Red Hat, and I have seen a patch, but I am not sure how close
it is to completion. Patrick?

I am not near completion. However, I did post the remaining issues to
the hacker list last week. At the moment, there does not seem to be
negative feedback with the proposed modifications so I'll take that as
acceptance.

At the moment, I'm looking at a staggered integration at best. I'd
like to get the on-disk changes into cvs asap. The rest can be pieced
in over the next month or so. It's not the best solution but it is
manageable.

Patrick

On Mon, 5 May 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:

When we started on 7.4 development, I was hoping for three major
features:

o PITR (point-in-time recovery)
o Win32 port
o Master-slave Postgres-R

Now, the last one isn't going to happen because we didn't get any
funding for the replication guys. The first one is being worked on by
Patrick at Red Hat, and I have seen a patch, but I am not sure how close
it is to completion. Patrick?

For Win32, I was moving along well until I hit the fork/exec changes.
They are extensive, and I am having problems because though the port is
good from PeerDirect, it does take more work to get it up to our coding
standards, and second, it is against 7.2, and I have to factor all
changes up to our current CVS code.

I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by
code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May.

I am unsure what we should do:

delay code freeze
allow Win32 patches during beta
delay Win32 for 7.5

I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and
wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments
leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable
slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature
that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay
for the coming release?

Considering the slippage danger I'd say getting realistic estimates of the
timetable for these features would be a good idea. Freezing can then be fixed
at a time where there is a good chance the code will be done by and with the
'feature freeze' part emphasised, i.e. let the timetable slip this once but
that's it.

--
Nigel J. Andrews

Bruce Momjian schrieb:

I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by
code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May.

I am unsure what we should do:

delay code freeze
allow Win32 patches during beta
delay Win32 for 7.5

I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. As
much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32
version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm
happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a
business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official"
win32 version.

So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad choice.

Cheers
Thomas

"Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> writes:

I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and
wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments
leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable
slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature
that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay
for the coming release?

Unfortunately, we've heard that siren song before :-(

"Hold up this release just a little while I finish major feature X" was
exactly the logic that led us to slip the 7.1 and 7.2 releases by many
months, because "just a little" kept stretching. I don't think it's
fair to other developers to put the release on ice while one or two
people finish what they were supposed to have done on time. No one else
can plan to do useful work if the release schedule is driven by
"whenever Bruce/Patrick/Vadim/Tom/whoever gets done with X".

If we're going to slip then we should establish a new release target
date several months away (September or later), and hold to that schedule.
But is that really a better plan? We have accomplished quite a lot
since last September, and holding those improvements out of the hands of
users for months more is not a zero-cost thing. Nor do I take it as a
sure thing that we won't be hearing the very same complaint come
September. Both of these projects were supposed to have been done
months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that
they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still
have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again?

regards, tom lane

Hi there,

On Mon, 5 May 2003, Thomas Kellerer wrote:

Bruce Momjian schrieb:

I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by
code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May.

I am unsure what we should do:

delay code freeze
allow Win32 patches during beta
delay Win32 for 7.5

I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. As
much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32
version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm
happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a
business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official"
win32 version.

So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad choice.

That's also my opinion. Sometimes Justin forwards mails he
receives from people concerned in PostgreSQL to the advocacy mailing list,
and you'll notice that most of that people look like non-technical (ie,
managers) and probably would like to develop their software without
worrying about the plataform their database will have to run.
Unfortunatelly I currently don't track -current nor have yet tested a
Win32 snapshot (though I'd like to, once I looked for but I couldn't find
any binary snapshot).

If there's something to improve a lot the advocacy effort results,
this would be a Win32 port.

[]s
Ricardo.

On Mon, 5 May 2003, Tom Lane wrote:

...

If we're going to slip then we should establish a new release target
date several months away (September or later), and hold to that schedule.

That's why I say try and get a realistic estimate and then a judgment can be
made as to whether the freeze stays or it slips _a little_.

But is that really a better plan? We have accomplished quite a lot
since last September, and holding those improvements out of the hands of
users for months more is not a zero-cost thing. Nor do I take it as a
sure thing that we won't be hearing the very same complaint come
September. Both of these projects were supposed to have been done
months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that
they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still
have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again?

No, I wouldn't, but then I was thinking more of a month, two at the very most,
certainly not stretching it as far as Sept.

For a current client I actually prefer to get an early release, even June is
pushing it a bit. On the other hand if the release isn't going to be out in
time for me to switch to it for the first release of this project, which it may
well not be on the current release schedule, then I'd certainly like one with
PITR available to make upgrading attractive not just done for the sake of
upgrading.

--
Nigel J. Andrews

Amen.

Since I now have some free time on my hands (through no choice of mine
;-( ) I can devote some of it to the W32 work if someone (Bruce?) would
like to throw some tasks over the fence at me, to help shorten the cycle. (I
take it from previous discussion what is basically needed is Windows+cygwin,
right?)

andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Kellerer" <spam_eater@gmx.net>
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list

Bruce Momjian schrieb:

I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by
code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May.

I am unsure what we should do:

delay code freeze
allow Win32 patches during beta
delay Win32 for 7.5

I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well.

As

much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32
version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm
happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a
business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official"
win32 version.

So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad

choice.

I have gotten some replies so let me chime in now.

Basically, here is how this happens --- you wait for a slow time to do
this major work, and as the deadline draws near, you realize a slow time
isn't coming and you stop doing anything else but the big project. I
bet Patrick is in the same boat.

I am not reading much email anymore, not participating in discussions,
not applying patches, not adding other features --- but I underestimated
the fork/exec issues and now I feel behind. I have phoned Jan and he is
going to help me out, but at this point, I don't know if that will be
enough so I am reporting to the group.

Also, I am reporting problems now, rather than mid-May or June 1.

As far as past delay disasters, the issues were:

o waited until the deadline to extend
o extended deadline in too small increments
o didn't set reasonable new deadlines

So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to
decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have
to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still
reasonable/desired.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andrew Dunstan wrote:

Amen.

Since I now have some free time on my hands (through no choice of mine
;-( ) I can devote some of it to the W32 work if someone (Bruce?) would
like to throw some tasks over the fence at me, to help shorten the cycle. (I
take it from previous discussion what is basically needed is Windows+cygwin,
right?)

andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Kellerer" <spam_eater@gmx.net>
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list

Bruce Momjian schrieb:

I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by
code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May.

I am unsure what we should do:

delay code freeze
allow Win32 patches during beta
delay Win32 for 7.5

I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well.

As

much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32
version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm
happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a
business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official"
win32 version.

So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad

choice.

Cheers
Thomas

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-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:

As far as past delay disasters, the issues were:
o waited until the deadline to extend
o extended deadline in too small increments
o didn't set reasonable new deadlines
So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to
decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have
to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still
reasonable/desired.

Do you think there is a substantial chance that you will be done on July
1?

regards, tom lane

Bruce,

I think you are doing the right thing by starting the discussion now.
But there are at least three ways to deal with the potential of missing
the June 1 date. The first way is to move the date a second way is to
cut scope, and a third way is to increase resources. I would like to
focus on that third way. Is there anything any of us out here lurking
on these mail lists can do to help? I know that there are a lot of
people who want to see the win32 port in 7.4. Can the work be broken up
so that others could contribute?

thanks,
--Barry

Bruce Momjian wrote:

On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 21:08:37 +0100,
"Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> wrote:

I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and
wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments
leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable
slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature
that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay
for the coming release?

There is already a lot of good stuff in 7.4. In my opinion what there is
enough to justify a release even without PITR or the WIN32 port.
That isn't to say that it isn't worth waiting a little to save some
testing effort (if say a 7.5 were to come out very shortly after 7.4
with the WIN32 port or PITR), but if it is really going to be a couple
of extra months some consideration should be given to getting the stuff
you already have out to people.

Tom Lane wrote:

Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:

As far as past delay disasters, the issues were:
o waited until the deadline to extend
o extended deadline in too small increments
o didn't set reasonable new deadlines
So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to
decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have
to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still
reasonable/desired.

Do you think there is a substantial chance that you will be done on July
1?

If it can't be done by July, then I think it isn't worth waiting for. I
am working with Jan now, and he did the fork/exec part of the code, so
let me see what he says tomorrow and I will report back.

Patrick, can you finish PITR by July 1?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that postgres-r master-slave will
be delayed to 7.5 because of it's lack of funding. How far delayed would
Postgres-r be?

I want both Postgres-r & win32 asap... So.. If PITR, win32 and Postgres-r
will be done soon, but not soon enough to be in 7.4 why not get 7.4 out with
what you have already (start the feature freeze early even) and then get a
7.5 out shortly afterwards? (say 4 months after, instead of 6?)

That would also help with the perception people have of Postgres (The whole
"have we lost momentum" thread). If postgres can be seen getting a number
of releases out quickly, with major new (well tested, stable) features in
each, that will definetly help Postgres' momentum as percieved by the world.

Later
Rob

On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 21:08:37 +0100,
"Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> wrote:

I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze

and

wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from

comments

leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable
slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major

feature

that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short

delay

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
Sent: 05 May 2003 20:23
To: PostgreSQL-development
Cc: patrickm@redhat.com
Subject: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list

I am unsure what we should do:

delay code freeze
allow Win32 patches during beta
delay Win32 for 7.5

I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for many of the
people on this list is extremely important for the project itself in my
opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even complete newbies pass
us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL.

We have the patches, we know we (ok, you :-) ) can make them work, so
let's delay the release as long as required (unless we're talking
excessive amounts of time here) and get out the Win32 release many
people have been talking about for 7.4.

Just my 0.02p...

Regards, Dave.

I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for many of the
people on this list is extremely important for the project itself in my
opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even complete newbies pass
us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL.

I don't mind delaying either, because:

1. Most people still have not upgraded to 7.3 (check the vote on
postgresql.org)

2. I don't think there are any 'compelling' features in 7.3 yet to make it
worth the effort upgrading... PITR would be one such feature, however.

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Kings-Lynne [mailto:chriskl@familyhealth.com.au]
Sent: 06 May 2003 09:07
To: Dave Page; Bruce Momjian; PostgreSQL-development
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list

I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for

many of the

people on this list is extremely important for the project

itself in

my opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even

complete newbies

pass us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL.

I don't mind delaying either, because:

1. Most people still have not upgraded to 7.3 (check the vote on
postgresql.org)

Umm, that shows the opposite.

However, the past survey 'What would attract the most new PostgreSQL
users?' does show Win32 being the second most important feature for
adding new users next to replication (which we know won't happen).

Regards, Dave.

Dave Page wrote:

We have the patches, we know we (ok, you :-) ) can make them work, so
let's delay the release as long as required (unless we're talking
excessive amounts of time here) and get out the Win32 release many
people have been talking about for 7.4.

I'm just wondering why the win32 port is assumed to be a FEATURE. To me,
a feature is a functionality available on all supported platforms. At
the moment, native win32 just isn't a supported platform. Why not
releasing 7.4 with all stable enhancements on the existing platforms,
and make a 7.4.1 release stating "now we also support the win32 platform"?

Just another suggestion regarding the feature list:
The current implementation of statement triggers is incomplete, making
it virtually useless. At the moment, it's quite like an update statement
that doesn't support a where clause. This should be taken out of the
announced features list, because this would provoke a lot of how-to
mailing list entries that have to be answered "you can't" resulting in
user's frustration. Neil Conway, who made the patch so far, won't have
time to complete it before August or September, and it seems nobody else
has the time to do this until July 1.

Regards,

Andreas

Bruce Momjian wrote:

If it can't be done by July, then I think it isn't worth waiting for. I
am working with Jan now, and he did the fork/exec part of the code, so
let me see what he says tomorrow and I will report back.

Patrick, can you finish PITR by July 1?

It sounds reasonable but so did May 15. I know what has to be done,
it's just a matter of clearing schedules to get a large block of time.
No vacation until it's done I guess.

Patrick

"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> writes:

I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for many of the
people on this list is extremely important for the project itself in my
opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even complete newbies pass
us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL.

The fact that people are putting so much emphasis on attracting newbies
via the Windows port seems to me to be a good reason *not* to delay 7.4
for it. If we slip the schedule for it, what we will have is a rushed,
probably not very solid port. How many newbies will we lose permanently
if their first exposure to Postgres is a buggy Windows port?

I'd far rather see it done right for 7.5 than done hurriedly for 7.4.

regards, tom lane