Changes to Contributor List

Tom,

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

Yeah, I was thinking of moving them from "Major Contributors" to just
"Contributors". We'd rather have a "Past Contributors"?

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't
contributed any code since 7.1.0?

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't
contributed any code since 7.1.0?

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

Yes, I think we are going to use that Emeritus list only for special
contributors who aren't involved any more. I think Brian ??? would be a
good addition too. He was around during 1.X and 6.X. Marc? Remember?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Josh Berkus wrote:

Folks,

If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on
developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at:
http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php

... and tell me what's out of date other than me & Vadim? i.e.:

A) What contributors are missing from the list?
B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't contributed
any code since 7.1.0?
C) Who needs their e-mail address updated?
D) Who needs their description updated? (Text, please ... I won't write it)

Jan Wieck in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, (JanWieck@Yahoo.com,
<a href="http://www.afilias.info&quot;&gt;Afilias USA INC.</a>)

overhauled the query rewrite rule system, wrote our procedural languages
PL/pgSQL and PL/Tcl and many other complex features like TOAST.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #

Tom Lane wrote:

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't
contributed any code since 7.1.0?

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English
speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Guys,

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
January.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

emeritus is a perfectly good latin word. No need to
dumb things down.

--elein

Josh Berkus wrote:

Guys,

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
January.

Agreed. I think Jan is the only one who knows how to updated it. Jan?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Tom,

Yeah. It was cute when we did it but it's overkill as a way of pointing
out that we have a worldwide development community. We can just say
that...

I'll be happy to re-do it someday using OOo's imagemapper. But not this week
...

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:

Josh Berkus wrote:

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
January.

Agreed.

Yeah. It was cute when we did it but it's overkill as a way of pointing
out that we have a worldwide development community. We can just say
that...

regards, tom lane

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
January.

Personally, I don't really see the need for developer.postgresql.org
to be a separate sub-site. Since it is basically just a collection of
links to other resources (CVSweb, TODO list, devel docs build, etc.),
why not just make it a page or two on www.postgresql.org?

-Neil

Josh Berkus writes:

If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on
developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at:
http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php

One thing that really puzzles me is this web page:

http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/

This is sort of the same web page that we're talking about here, but it
lists the developers below the press contacts as also-rans. What's worse,
this is the web page that people will get to if they go to if they go to
http://www.postgresql.org and click on the first link they see: "What
is...". Don't get me wrong, press contacts and advocacy team deserve
recognition as well, but not on a page that is indirectly labelled "What
is PostgreSQL". It makes it look like the project is run by marketing
dudes.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Neil Conway writes:

Personally, I don't really see the need for developer.postgresql.org
to be a separate sub-site. Since it is basically just a collection of
links to other resources (CVSweb, TODO list, devel docs build, etc.),
why not just make it a page or two on www.postgresql.org?

I agree to that. The best way to get people involved is if we have an
integrated presentation of the project. That is, users, developers,
marketing, documentation, web mastering, translation, whatever. Right
now, the developers sit in their own corner, and users think, "These
people can't even be bothered to present relevant information in the main
web site; they don't want me." The marketing people sit in another
corner, and apparently their marketing strategy is "make the marketing
site look as much unlike anything else in the project as possible". And,
well, all the other people don't sit anywhere, because the main site
understands itself as a portal, and there is no obvious way that other
groups can integrate.

Check out www.debian.org or www.freebsd.org to see what I mean.
Everything is there at one glance, everything looks the same, everyone is
invited everywhere.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Tom Lane wrote:

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't
contributed any code since 7.1.0?

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English
speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.

Rupert Murdoch once sacked an editor (over the Hitler Diaries forgery
fiasco) by giving him the title of "Editor Emeritus". The editor asked
what it meant and Murdoch is reported to have replied "It's Latin,
Frank. The 'e' means you're out and the 'meritus' means you deserve it."

:-)

cheers

andrew

Peter,

http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/

This is sort of the same web page that we're talking about here, but it
lists the developers below the press contacts as also-rans. What's worse,
this is the web page that people will get to if they go to if they go to
http://www.postgresql.org and click on the first link they see: "What
is...".

??? I thought we fixed that link.

Don't get me wrong, press contacts and advocacy team deserve
recognition as well, but not on a page that is indirectly labelled "What
is PostgreSQL". It makes it look like the project is run by marketing
dudes.

Yeah, you're right,it's confusing .... we should have two seperate pages, one
for "What is the PGDG" possibly linking to developer., and one page for
"Contact Us". As it is, they two are munged together.

The problem is getting it fixed before 7.4 .... there are 7 translations ....

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus wrote:

Folks,

If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on
developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at:
http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php

... and tell me what's out of date other than me & Vadim? i.e.:

A) What contributors are missing from the list?
B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't contributed
any code since 7.1.0?
C) Who needs their e-mail address updated?
D) Who needs their description updated? (Text, please ... I won't write it)

Who is eligible to be a "contributor" ?
Who wrote a single line of code that now is inside Postgres?
Who discovered a "major" bug ?
Who partecipate actively to all discussions ?

Regards
Gaetano Mendola

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English
speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.

Isn't that an even better reason to use it? :)

Chris

I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English
speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.

Isn't that an even better reason to use it? :)

My personal opinion would be that they can use dictionary.com if they
don't know what it means.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Josh,

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
January.

I'm working on a new developer site. I've posted to -www & -core about
this some months ago. I've asked -core list to write theis opinions about
this, but noone replied me.

As we've talked a bit on -www, I will be using the same schema that
PostgreSQL.org uses; with slightly different colors. I wanted to finish it
before the release of v7.4. I'm very overloaded nowadays; so I hope to
finish it in a month.

So, could we please talk about developers site on a new thread? As I've
said before, I believe that developer.PostgreSQL.org seems so bad for us.

Regards,
- --
Devrim GUNDUZ
devrim@gunduz.org devrim.gunduz@linux.org.tr
http://www.tdmsoft.com
http://www.gunduz.org
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yhYITy+bgzPiOp/l2NvhK2I=
=KaUI
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-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com]
Sent: 05 November 2003 22:27
To: Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane
Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

Guys,

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers?
It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load
like molasses in January.

Yes please. That should reduce my email load a bit!

Regards, Dave.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net]
Sent: 05 November 2003 23:11
To: Josh Berkus
Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

Josh Berkus writes:

If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the

Contributor List on

developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please

take a gander at:

http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php

One thing that really puzzles me is this web page:

http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/

Personnally I don't see why that whole site isn't part of the main site.

Regards, Dave.

Josh Berkus writes:

Yeah, you're right,it's confusing .... we should have two seperate pages, one
for "What is the PGDG" possibly linking to developer., and one page for
"Contact Us". As it is, they two are munged together.

Btw., what process is used to determine which organizations become a
"recognised contributor"?

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Emeritus is verbatin from Latin and is really very spread into most Western
languages.

--
Paulo Scardine

On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 03:21, Dave Page wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net]
Sent: 05 November 2003 23:11
To: Josh Berkus
Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

Josh Berkus writes:

If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the

Contributor List on

developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please

take a gander at:

http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php

One thing that really puzzles me is this web page:

http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/

Personnally I don't see why that whole site isn't part of the main site.

Because when it was originally created the guy doing the main website
and the guy doing the advocacy website weren't big on nuzzling together.

The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site,
namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps
with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites
could be brought together.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 01:23, Devrim GUNDUZ wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Josh,

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:

Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
January.

I'm working on a new developer site. I've posted to -www & -core about
this some months ago. I've asked -core list to write theis opinions about
this, but noone replied me.

As we've talked a bit on -www, I will be using the same schema that
PostgreSQL.org uses; with slightly different colors. I wanted to finish it
before the release of v7.4. I'm very overloaded nowadays; so I hope to
finish it in a month.

So, could we please talk about developers site on a new thread? As I've
said before, I believe that developer.PostgreSQL.org seems so bad for us.

Well, maybe instead of looking at how to redesign the
developer.postgresql.org website, we should break down each part of the
developers website and find a place for it in the main site.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:25:38AM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:

The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site,
namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps
with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites
could be brought together.

Certainly; see the www.debian.org for an example. They have
multilingual capabilities across the whole site.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"C�mo ponemos nuestros dedos en la arcilla del otro. Eso es la amistad; jugar
al alfarero y ver qu� formas se pueden sacar del otro" (C. Halloway en
La Feria de las Tinieblas, R. Bradbury)

Peter,

Btw., what process is used to determine which organizations become a
"recognised contributor"?

Yeah, that's another "ToDo" item ... your company needs to go up there.

Criteria are major code contributions and/or sponsoring a full-time developer.
We've discussed it on -CORE some, but not come to a specific determination of
the level required. However, between you & M & LinuxWorld etc. your
company definitely qualifies.

And if we're gonna continue this thread, we should move it to -Advocacy.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus writes:

And if we're gonna continue this thread, we should move it to -Advocacy.

I'm a bit lost here.

It was recently said very clearly, "The target audience of the advocacy
site is PHB's, not technical people." And the content of the site
supports that in my mind. Yet, the advocacy group keeps absorbing more
and more tasks that are not strictly related to development, but are
clearly not targeting PHB's exclusively either. There is a wide spectrum
between the PostgreSQL guru on the one side and the PHB on the other side.
(And the middle of the spectrum happens to be the largest part.) Those are
the people I see coming to presentations, expositions, those are the
people I am targeting when I'm making flyers, write books and magazine
articles, prepare training classes. Those are the people who actually
come to our web site in search of information. Those are the people who
will like to read a nice press release that is not a bare change log but
still free of marketing BS. But nobody's addressing those people.

So please, declare your intentions and make them consistent with your
actions.

Until then, or in any case, the discussion list of the development group
is the right place to discuss who gets to be a recognized contributor of
that same development group.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Herrera [mailto:alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl]
Sent: 06 November 2003 14:47
To: Robert Treat
Cc: Dave Page; Peter Eisentraut; Josh Berkus;
pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:25:38AM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:

The advocacy site does have different requirements than the

main site,

namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but
perhaps with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main

site these two

sites could be brought together.

Certainly; see the www.debian.org for an example. They have
multilingual capabilities across the whole site.

We nearly do on ours. Andreas has done quite a bit of work on it.

Regards, Dave.

Peter,

I'm a bit lost here.

I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which
is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no?

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus writes:

I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which
is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no?

No.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Peter,

I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors"

which

is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no?

No.

Please explain.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

I think it is part of the incentive for corporations to contribute - not
just an impressive list for PHB. It's nice to get the recognition for
their time/money contributions and a good way for the PGDG to show their
appreciation.

-r

On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 14:34, Josh Berkus wrote:

Peter,

I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors"

which

is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no?

No.

Please explain.

--
Ryan Mahoney <ryan@paymentalliance.net>

Josh Berkus writes:

I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which
is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no?

No.

Please explain.

I don't see anything in this project that should be strictly a PHB thing,
the exception maybe being the weird whitepaper someone is going to write
sometime. Anything else is intended for a greatly diverse audience, who
may be engineers or decision makers, who may be technically incompetent,
technically open-minded, or technical experts, and who may or may not have
varying degrees of clues about open source, databases, and PostgreSQL.
In other words, the general public. If you disagree, then maybe we should
split up into advocacy-for-phbs and advocacy-for-real-people groups.

Moreover, you seem to imply that the list of companies should primarily be
a marketing instrument of the PostgreSQL project for attracting new users.
I don't understand that. I would understand it if the list contained a
large number of "big names", but it does not, and it is not set up to
strive for that goal. Right now, the list is nothing more than a
marketing tool for the listed companies for attracting existing users to
them.

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

That works if you think that the only form of corporate support is
sponsoring a developer. Seems to me that's a bit narrow-minded.
For instance, hub.org is contributing (by providing hosting services)
way more than you might think from the number of times it appears on
the developer list...

regards, tom lane

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:08:57PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using
Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. It's really strange,
but for some reason, people seem to believe that a product isn't any
good unless a large number of people are already using it, and that
it _is_ good if a large number of people do use it. (I guess the idea
is that all those Windows users can't be wrong. Oh, wait. . .)

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Afilias Canada                        Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110

Hello,

My feeling is that advocacy should be just that: Advocacy.
It doesn't matter who the intended audience is in reality. However,
it is also important to remember that technical experts typically
don't need to be sold on PostgreSQL.

PHBs on the other hand probably do and thus much of our
Advocacy work should be geared towards them. I believe
one place where we are particularly week is PostgreSQL
versus MySQL.

We should have mountains of dead tree printables on why
you should use PostgreSQL and why you shouldn't use mySQL.
This can be done in a non-flammatory way.

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Josh Berkus writes:

I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which
is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no?

No.

Please explain.

I don't see anything in this project that should be strictly a PHB thing,
the exception maybe being the weird whitepaper someone is going to write
sometime. Anything else is intended for a greatly diverse audience, who
may be engineers or decision makers, who may be technically incompetent,
technically open-minded, or technical experts, and who may or may not have
varying degrees of clues about open source, databases, and PostgreSQL.
In other words, the general public. If you disagree, then maybe we should
split up into advocacy-for-phbs and advocacy-for-real-people groups.

Moreover, you seem to imply that the list of companies should primarily be
a marketing instrument of the PostgreSQL project for attracting new users.
I don't understand that. I would understand it if the list contained a
large number of "big names", but it does not, and it is not set up to
strive for that goal. Right now, the list is nothing more than a
marketing tool for the listed companies for attracting existing users to
them.

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org

Peter,

Right now, the list is nothing more than a
marketing tool for the listed companies for attracting existing users to
them.

Yes? That's exactly the intention -- so that existing users and interested
parties can see the companies that give major resources to the project.
This has a dual purpose: it both provides free advertising for the companies
as a tit-for-tat, and shows potential adopters that PostgreSQL is not 100%
hobby developers coding in their free time.

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

You seem pretty opposed to the corporate list given that one of your
co-workers just requested to be on it.

To paraphrase one of my friends who works for an ad agency: "Peter, we're not
advertising to YOU." That page is not there for you or for people like
you. It is there for IT department managers, PHBs, people considering
PostgreSQL, and people looking for high-end paid support.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:08:57PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

Your assuming that people are intelligent. In general they are not. In
general
people want to see that Cisco, Afilias, RedHat, ACS etc... use PostgreSQL.
They want graphics, they want teddy bears.

J

I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using
Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. It's really strange,
but for some reason, people seem to believe that a product isn't any
good unless a large number of people are already using it, and that
it _is_ good if a large number of people do use it. (I guess the idea
is that all those Windows users can't be wrong. Oh, wait. . .)

A

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org

*This* we can move to -advocacy. :-)

Joshua D. Drake writes:

it is also important to remember that technical experts typically
don't need to be sold on PostgreSQL.

I think this assumption is flawed. For example, I think it'd be fair to
consider myself a technical expert who is informed about open source.
Yet, here are some things you would realy need to sell me on:

Debian
GNOME
vi
OpenOffice
Python
Interbase

(Please don't, I'm happy with what I have. :-) )

And that is just one case, not covering the varying degrees between
"expert", "aware", and "ignorant".

At the expo last week, we had over a hundred visitors, of which none were
PHBs, only a handful were relatively ignorant, but over half of the crowd
wanted to be "sold" in one way or another.

With those people, "selling" is more likely to be fruitful and rewarding.
But it needs to be done.

We should have mountains of dead tree printables on why
you should use PostgreSQL and why you shouldn't use mySQL.
This can be done in a non-flammatory way.

I think the very fact that you'd do it would be interpreted negatively by
many people. I talked to some other major projects at the expo who have
obvious opponents. They make it a policy not to do direct comparisons,
out of respect and decency. That's tough, but I think it's the way to go.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Guys,

We should have mountains of dead tree printables on why
you should use PostgreSQL and why you shouldn't use mySQL.
This can be done in a non-flammatory way.

I think the very fact that you'd do it would be interpreted negatively by
many people. I talked to some other major projects at the expo who have
obvious opponents. They make it a policy not to do direct comparisons,
out of respect and decency. That's tough, but I think it's the way to go.

I for one think that we should do comparisons with *all* major databases, not
just MySQL. In fact, maybe we should start with Oracle, DB2, or (my
favorite) MS SQL Server first. Go where the money is, y'know?

Especially since most of (certainly not all of) the MySQL people have been
trying to patch things up lately.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Andrew Sullivan writes:

I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using
Postgres, people want to know who else uses it.

True, but for that you're looking at the wrong list. This is the list of
contributors, not of users.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Josh Berkus writes:

Yes? That's exactly the intention -- so that existing users and interested
parties can see the companies that give major resources to the project.

Yes, but existing users and most interested parties don't fall into the
PHB category, nor do most PHB's fall into the existing users or interested
parties category, nor do most existing users fall into the group that one
advocates to. Hence my original point: the list of supporting companies
does not primarily belong in the advocacy realm.

You seem pretty opposed to the corporate list given that one of your
co-workers just requested to be on it.

Well, if there must be a list, then why not be on it? :-)

It is there for IT department managers, PHBs, people considering
PostgreSQL, and people looking for high-end paid support.

Great, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Peter,

Hence my original point: the list of supporting companies
does not primarily belong in the advocacy realm.

But it does! You pointed it out yourself .... for the hackers & OSS tech
people, they can just look at the descriptions of the major contributors and
figure things out for themselves. They don't need a list with company logos
& links.

This is important because we've (people on the Advocacy list) briefly
discussed expanding this page to cover companies which, in the future, make
*financial* contributions to PostgreSQL ... sort of a "corporate donors"
page. This works very well in standard nonprofit fundraising; the project
gets $, and the donors get publicity. Obviously, contributors would have to
be categorized, but that's an issue for when we're ready to set it up.

It is there for IT department managers, PHBs, people considering
PostgreSQL, and people looking for high-end paid support.

Great, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.

I can't tell over e-mail whether you're agreeing with me or being sarcastic.
Clue?

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 09:46, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:25:38AM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:

The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site,
namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps
with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites
could be brought together.

Certainly; see the www.debian.org for an example. They have
multilingual capabilities across the whole site.

<rant>
we don't need links, we need patches
</rant>

we do have this development in progress, theres just the matter of
getting time to make it happen.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Josh Berkus writes:

But it does! You pointed it out yourself .... for the hackers & OSS tech
people, they can just look at the descriptions of the major contributors and
figure things out for themselves. They don't need a list with company logos
& links.

Other people have pointed out that this is not really sufficient. So if
there is to be a separate company list, then it should be next to the
individuals list.

This is important because we've (people on the Advocacy list) briefly
discussed expanding this page to cover companies which, in the future, make
*financial* contributions to PostgreSQL ... sort of a "corporate donors"
page. This works very well in standard nonprofit fundraising; the project
gets $, and the donors get publicity. Obviously, contributors would have to
be categorized, but that's an issue for when we're ready to set it up.

When we're ready. But we're not.

But then again, this sort of list would mostly be of use to existing
users, in the sense, "They support a project I like, so I like them."
You could only really make use of that for attracting potential users if
you could make a clear case the the amount of donations is sufficient to
guarantee any kind of longevity of the project. I think that will be hard
to do (because there is, in fact, absolutely no relation). But hopefully,
by the time we've arrived there, this silly web site fragmentation will be
over and this question will be moot.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Robert Treat writes:

<rant>
we don't need links, we need patches
</rant>

Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

How does one get involved?
Where is the code?
What is the plan?
Where is the roadmap?
Where can issues be discussed?
Who is working on this?
How can we help?

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Peter,

Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

This isn't helping. What Robert was pointing out is that we don't currently
have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving the site anytime
soon. Robert doesn't need "managerial direction."

Or did you have ambitions to be a PHB? ;-p

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

Peter,

Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

This isn't helping. What Robert was pointing out is that we don't
currently have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving
the site anytime soon.

Peter appeared to be asking how additional people could get involved.
Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done?

regards, tom lane

On Thursday 06 November 2003 17:18, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Robert Treat writes:

<rant>
we don't need links, we need patches
</rant>

Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

How does one get involved?

post proposals to pgsql-www and start coding

Where is the code?

http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php

What is the plan?

if you have an itch, scratch it...

Where is the roadmap?

right now andreas' is working on multi-lingual capabilities. i have half an
implementation of variable site width i'd love to finish off, and we have
some pages for things like the release notes that we need to add to the
dynamic site building scripts.

on the advocacy site, there is a file called TODO in the main directory that
has some issues in it that need to be addressed in the current system.
potentially we will also need to add translated press kits and release notes
to the system.

on techdocs there is a todo.php file which is probably completely bogus.
theres some indecision on the direction of this site. I would like to convert
the whole thing to CVS, including the wiki pages that comprised the guides
section. others are testing using bricolage to make a new site at which time
some of the data would be transitioned over. i happen to think there are
several files on this site that should be moved to the main www site, i'd be
happy to expand on that if people start doing work on it. really the most
important thing here is that we get some movement on the site in order to
ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new web VM.

Where can issues be discussed?

pgsql-www@postgresql.org

Who is working on this?

myself, dave page, devrim gunduz, andreas grabmller are the primary folks
doing the work, though there are certainly others involved. [that guy marc
seems to be involved somewhat ;-) ]

How can we help?

never send an email saying "you guys should post such and such news item on
the web site". instead submit the news item yourself and we can have it
approved and on the site in much less time. :-)

otherwise it works much like any other open source project, if there is
something specific you want to work on, post a proposal or ask if anyone else
is working on it on the -www list.

let me also say on a personal note that if none of this looks interesting but
there is something else that i am working on that you'd like to get involved
in, drop me a line. that last thing i want to do is to continue to
consolidate work around me, I'd much rather empower others to become regular
contributors.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net]
Sent: 06 November 2003 22:18
To: Robert Treat
Cc: Alvaro Herrera; Dave Page; Josh Berkus;
pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

How does one get involved?

Join the www list.

Where is the code?

On the www server.

What is the plan?
Where is the roadmap?

There is no written plan.

Where can issues be discussed?

Pgsql-www@postgresql.org

Who is working on this?

Andreas Grabmüller [webmaster@letzplay.de]

How can we help?

Andreas?

Regards, Dave.

Hi all,

well, the most of the programming itself is done, what's currently missing is

1) Some fine tuning on the layout
2) Adding the static pages
3) Translating the pages, news, events etc. into german and maybe some other languages if we find someone to translate it
4) Creating something that handles old links as the new ones are not compatible
5) Reformatting the PHP code as some parts currently look horrible ;)
6) All the things I have forgotten...

It's currently not easy to work together on the code as it's on my Subversion server and nobody else uses Subversion ;) If someone wants to help me on this it would be good if we could get some CVS repository on gborg for this...

Well, before doing that we maybe should decide if we combine www and advocacy (and maybe even developer?) into one big site... I would like that Idea, I think I will create a little sample page later to see how it could look like :)

Mit freundlichen Gr��en
Andreas Grabm�ller

----- Original-Nachricht -----
Von: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
An: "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>, "Robert Treat" <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
CC: "Alvaro Herrera" <alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl>, "Josh Berkus" <josh@agliodbs.com>, <pgsql-www@postgresql.org>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Datum: Friday, November 07, 2003 09:34 AM
Betreff: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

[...]

How can we help?

Andreas?

Regards, Dave.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Andreas Grabm=FCller [mailto:webmaster@letzplay.de]=20
Sent: 07 November 2003 11:33
To: peter_e@gmx.net; xzilla@users.sourceforge.net; Dave Page
Cc: alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl; josh@agliodbs.com;=20
pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List
=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
It's currently not easy to work together on the code as it's=20
on my Subversion server and nobody else uses Subversion ;) If=20
someone wants to help me on this it would be good if we could=20
get some CVS repository on gborg for this...

We could, though I would want it to be part of the main www module. I'm not=
sure how we could branch it easily now that you've made so many changes. I=
'm a relative CVS newbie though, so perhaps someone else knows how we could=
approach this?

Well, before doing that we maybe should decide if we combine=20
www and advocacy (and maybe even developer?) into one big=20
site... I would like that Idea, I think I will create a=20
little sample page later to see how it could look like :)

I would like to see advocacy merged, but am not so fussed about developer. =
I don't see any real reason why advocacy should be elsewhere, especially as=
the very people it is aimed for are more likely to go straight to www.

Regards, Dave.

Well the current argument aside, I do find it discouraging that there is
a considerable difference between the four sites, advocacy, gborg, dev,
and the main site, not only in form but in substance.

I am listed on the dev site as a major contributor, but not on the
advocacy site. Where was the list compiled from on the advocacy site?

Dave

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 06:32, Andreas Grabmüller wrote:

Hi all,

well, the most of the programming itself is done, what's currently missing is

1) Some fine tuning on the layout
2) Adding the static pages
3) Translating the pages, news, events etc. into german and maybe some other languages if we find someone to translate it
4) Creating something that handles old links as the new ones are not compatible
5) Reformatting the PHP code as some parts currently look horrible ;)
6) All the things I have forgotten...

It's currently not easy to work together on the code as it's on my Subversion server and nobody else uses Subversion ;) If someone wants to help me on this it would be good if we could get some CVS repository on gborg for this...

Well, before doing that we maybe should decide if we combine www and advocacy (and maybe even developer?) into one big site... I would like that Idea, I think I will create a little sample page later to see how it could look like :)

I disagree... the tech and the content are separate issues, let's keep
them that way or we'll never make progress on either of them.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Robert Treat writes:

I disagree... the tech and the content are separate issues, let's keep
them that way or we'll never make progress on either of them.

Just because one solution is technically more simple, it doesn't mean that
it is the overall best solution.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Josh Berkus wrote:

Peter,

Btw., what process is used to determine which organizations become a
"recognised contributor"?

Yeah, that's another "ToDo" item ... your company needs to go up there.

Criteria are major code contributions and/or sponsoring a full-time developer.
We've discussed it on -CORE some, but not come to a specific determination of
the level required. However, between you & M & LinuxWorld etc. your
company definitely qualifies.

I don't think the developers have to be full-time, like me and Tom. Any
company that consistently contributes developer time for items other
than "we need a feature" should be listed, I think. Peter, for example,
isn't full-time PostgreSQL, but is contributing greatly, and Command
Prompt has offered to contribute a developer toward Win32 --- I am
seeing more and more of these folks coming around, and it is beefing up
our development team. We can help these companies also by providing
speaking and trade show opportunities.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.

I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English
speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.

Isn't that an even better reason to use it? :)

That reminds me of this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

0x0d2C
==========

May your signals all trap
May your references be bounded
All memory aligned
Floats to ints rounded

Remember ...

Non-zero is true
++ adds one
Arrays start with zero
and, NULL is for none

For octal, use zero
0x means hex
= will set
== means test

use -> for a pointer
a dot if its not
? : is confusing
use them a lot <----

a.out is your program
there's no U in foobar
and, char (*(*x())[])() is
a function returning a pointer
to an array of pointers to
functions returning char

-- Jon S. Stumpf

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Imagine this discussion with your boss:

You: I want to spend an hour a day at work on PostgreSQL
community work.
Boss: Hmm. (How do I justify this?)
You: Our company will be listed on the main PostgreSQL web
site.
Boss: Fine. (That gives me a legitimate business purpose.)

This is why listing companies/individuals is good for several reasons,
and this is one of them.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Josh Berkus writes:

But it does! You pointed it out yourself .... for the hackers & OSS tech
people, they can just look at the descriptions of the major contributors and
figure things out for themselves. They don't need a list with company logos
& links.

Other people have pointed out that this is not really sufficient. So if
there is to be a separate company list, then it should be next to the
individuals list.

This is important because we've (people on the Advocacy list) briefly
discussed expanding this page to cover companies which, in the future, make
*financial* contributions to PostgreSQL ... sort of a "corporate donors"
page. This works very well in standard nonprofit fundraising; the project
gets $, and the donors get publicity. Obviously, contributors would have to
be categorized, but that's an issue for when we're ready to set it up.

When we're ready. But we're not.

But then again, this sort of list would mostly be of use to existing
users, in the sense, "They support a project I like, so I like them."
You could only really make use of that for attracting potential users if
you could make a clear case the the amount of donations is sufficient to
guarantee any kind of longevity of the project. I think that will be hard
to do (because there is, in fact, absolutely no relation). But hopefully,
by the time we've arrived there, this silly web site fragmentation will be
over and this question will be moot.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

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-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:08:57PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
their own recognition evaluation.

I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using
Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. It's really strange,
but for some reason, people seem to believe that a product isn't any
good unless a large number of people are already using it, and that
it _is_ good if a large number of people do use it. (I guess the idea
is that all those Windows users can't be wrong. Oh, wait. . .)

You have heard the term "first adopters". These people want to be
second adopters. :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:57:12PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

True, but for that you're looking at the wrong list. This is the list of
contributors, not of users.

I tend to agree with that. Maybe the trick is to talk about
"featured users" or something? I dunno, I keep trying to keep the
points off my hair.

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Afilias Canada                        Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110

Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:57:12PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

True, but for that you're looking at the wrong list. This is the list of
contributors, not of users.

I tend to agree with that. Maybe the trick is to talk about
"featured users" or something? I dunno, I keep trying to keep the
points off my hair.

Maybe a "developer of the month" feature. :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:24:04AM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Maybe a "developer of the month" feature. :-)

It would be quite cool if, say, General Bits could ocassionaly carry an
interview with a Postgres developer.
(Now that would be a mess to translate)

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Linux transform� mi computadora, de una `m�quina para hacer cosas',
en un aparato realmente entretenido, sobre el cual cada d�a aprendo
algo nuevo" (Jaime Salinas)

After a long battle with technology,alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl (Alvaro Herrera), an earthling, wrote:

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:24:04AM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Maybe a "developer of the month" feature. :-)

It would be quite cool if, say, General Bits could ocassionaly carry an
interview with a Postgres developer.
(Now that would be a mess to translate)

_I_ think that some inquiries should be made back and forth between
some combination of [Core Guys] and [Linux Magazine] for an interview.

There have lately been conspicuous interviews in LM with 'high ranking
folks' associated with such notable systems as:

- XFree86 (various participants)
- Linux 2.6 (Andrew Morton)
- Beowulf (various participants)
- Perl (Damien Conway)
- That other database system :-)

A discussion that drew in several of the PG "Core" would likely make
good reading, and a goodly attraction of interest.
--
wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org').
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/advocacy.html
Rules of the Evil Overlord #172. "I will allow guards to operate under
a flexible work schedule. That way if one is feeling sleepy, he can
call for a replacement, punch out, take a nap, and come back refreshed
and alert to finish out his shift. <http://www.eviloverlord.com/&gt;

Uhm, what does 'PHB' mean?

Anastasios

Anastasios Hatzis wrote:

Uhm, what does 'PHB' mean?

Pointy-haired boss, from the Dilbert comic strip. It is a boss who
doesn't understand technology, but thinks he does and manages you
accordingly.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 09:12:50AM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:

You: I want to spend an hour a day at work on PostgreSQL
community work.
Boss: Hmm. (How do I justify this?)
You: Our company will be listed on the main PostgreSQL web
site.
Boss: Fine. (That gives me a legitimate business purpose.)

That'd be cool for me, but what 'main PostgreSQL web site' are you
talking about? Is this www.postgresql.org? Or advocacy.postgresql.org?
Or maybe it'd be developer.postgresql.org?

I really think they should be unified. Any developer here really thinks
that developer things _have_ to be apart?

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"No hay hombre que no aspire a la plenitud, es decir,
la suma de experiencias de que un hombre es capaz"

Alvaro,

That'd be cool for me, but what 'main PostgreSQL web site' are you
talking about? Is this www.postgresql.org? Or advocacy.postgresql.org?
Or maybe it'd be developer.postgresql.org?

I think everyone agrees with the idea of unifying www, advocacy, and
developer. Techdocs and Gborg will stay seperate becuase they're based on
different technology.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:17:12AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:

Alvaro,

That'd be cool for me, but what 'main PostgreSQL web site' are you
talking about? Is this www.postgresql.org? Or advocacy.postgresql.org?
Or maybe it'd be developer.postgresql.org?

I think everyone agrees with the idea of unifying www, advocacy, and
developer. Techdocs and Gborg will stay seperate becuase they're based on
different technology.

Cool. I thought I had understand otherwise on a mail from Robert Treat.
Sorry for the confusion.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"La rebeld�a es la virtud original del hombre" (Arthur Schopenhauer)

Guys,

_I_ think that some inquiries should be made back and forth between
some combination of [Core Guys] and [Linux Magazine] for an interview.

I can set this up if you want; I already write for LM (Josh D., sorry for
jumping in). Actually, the holdup is finding a good interviewer; I suck at
taking interviews. I'll see if Martin has anyone.

Volunteers for interviewees?

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Robert,

on techdocs there is a todo.php file which is probably completely bogus.
theres some indecision on the direction of this site. I would like to
convert the whole thing to CVS, including the wiki pages that comprised the
guides section. others are testing using bricolage to make a new site at
which time some of the data would be transitioned over.

Yeah, that's me & Elein & David F. We feel pretty strongly that PostgreSQL
needs a place where users can contribute to documentation and help other
users without learning HTML, SGML, or CVS. Otherwise, we're throwing away a
lot of potential contributions and ignoring a lot of the community that wants
to help but find the barrier to entry too high.

I also see Techdocs as a "test site" for maybe moving more parts of
postgresql.org to a sophisticated CMS; while CVS is nice for version control,
it does nothing to help control style consistency, dynamic linking, or
multi-lingualism, which must all still be done 100% manually.

However, we've been real sluggards about getting this up & running. So if
you get the other stuff re-built and we're still lagging, then you'll have
come up with a very persuasive argument to do things your way.

i happen to think
there are several files on this site that should be moved to the main www
site, i'd be happy to expand on that if people start doing work on it.

Probably, yes.

really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the
site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new
web VM.

On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated?

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus writes:

I for one think that we should do comparisons with *all* major databases, not
just MySQL. In fact, maybe we should start with Oracle, DB2, or (my
favorite) MS SQL Server first. Go where the money is, y'know?

Certainly, gathering that information in a central place would be
beneficial. But we should be careful about the following possibilities:

1. Basing a marketing strategy on "we are better than X" rather than "we
will solve your problems because" is dangerous in multiple dimensions.
So, make this information available on the side, but don't rub it into
people's faces.

2. There is a real risk that we will come out badly compared to some
candidates, when you consider their full feature set.

2.a. If you don't consider their full feature set, your analysis will be
rejected as biases or ignorant.

3. You might get into legal trouble.

So, in the first round I would treat these documents as quasi-internal,
serving as references of information for preparing other material or, say,
preparing for tough questions at a presentation, but not as flyer type
material.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net

Tom,

Peter appeared to be asking how additional people could get involved.
Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done?

Ooops! Sorry, Peter, I *completely* mis-read your e-mail.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Herrera [mailto:alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl]
Sent: 07 November 2003 17:37
To: Bruce Momjian
Cc: Peter Eisentraut; Josh Berkus;
pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Changes to Contributor List

I really think they should be unified. Any developer here
really thinks that developer things _have_ to be apart?

One reason for doing so is that that box is where the developers have
their user accounts, thus allowing them to create their own pages for
sub projects that they work on such as
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/.

I always wanted to make the site into more of a developer portal, just
never got around to it...

Regards, Dave.

Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing whenjosh@agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus)wrote:

Guys,

_I_ think that some inquiries should be made back and forth between
some combination of [Core Guys] and [Linux Magazine] for an interview.

I can set this up if you want; I already write for LM (Josh D., sorry for
jumping in). Actually, the holdup is finding a good interviewer; I suck at
taking interviews. I'll see if Martin has anyone.

Volunteers for interviewees?

And note that it is well worth reviewing previous LM articles of this
sort such as the one on "That Other Database."

A GOOD interview would certainly _not_ be a response to that article,
but rather do the same thing that article does, which is to present
the interesting things about the project.
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];;
http://cbbrowne.com/info/spreadsheets.html
Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes,
because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes.
-- email sig, Brian Servis

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:51, Josh Berkus wrote:

really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the
site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new
web VM.

On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated?

Last I check it was the whole thing... techdocs runs on its own VM, the
other sites all run on a different VM. We need to kill the old VM, but
until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:51, Josh Berkus wrote:

really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the
site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new
web VM.

On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated?

Last I check it was the whole thing... techdocs runs on its own VM, the
other sites all run on a different VM. We need to kill the old VM, but
until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't

And there is no pressure/hurry for this to be done ... its not a 'simple
move', but a redesign based on new technology ... what is there now,
works, so no pressure

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:

<snip>

On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated?

Last I check it was the whole thing... techdocs runs on its own VM, the
other sites all run on a different VM. We need to kill the old VM, but
until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't

And there is no pressure/hurry for this to be done ... its not a 'simple
move', but a redesign based on new technology ... what is there now,
works, so no pressure

From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs
virtual machine too. That may or may not be the case these days, I just
don't remember.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

Justin,

From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs
virtual machine too. That may or may not be the case these days, I just
don't remember.

Really? I thought that they were running from one of Sun's machines. Will
check with Cristian.

If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on them,
dammit. Those get 21,000 views a week.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:

Justin,

From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs
virtual machine too. That may or may not be the case these days, I just
don't remember.

Really? I thought that they were running from one of Sun's machines. Will
check with Cristian.

If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on them,
dammit. Those get 21,000 views a week.

start of current access_log: 217.1.97.253 - - [08/Nov/2003:08:00:28 -0500]
end of current access_log: 141.211.97.33 - - [10/Nov/2003:13:28:39 -0500]

jobs# grep http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/user/index.php access_log | egrep -v "images" | wc -l
2966

looks like its still well used ...

In fact: http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/stats

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

Guys,

If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on
them, dammit. Those get 21,000 views a week.

Taken care of. We should get a button up soon.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Hi guys,

Alvaro, do you know how (or if) the people that do stuff for the Debian
website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

Alvaro Herrera wrote:

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:42:22PM +0800, Justin Clift wrote:

Alvaro, do you know how (or if) the people that do stuff for the Debian
website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?

Huh, sorry, no idea at all. I was just visiting the Debian site.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Right now the sectors on the hard disk run clockwise, but I heard a rumor that
you can squeeze 0.2% more throughput by running them counterclockwise.
It's worth the effort. Recommended." (Gerry Pourwelle)

Alvaro Herrera wrote:

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:42:22PM +0800, Justin Clift wrote:

Alvaro, do you know how (or if) the people that do stuff for the Debian
website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?

Huh, sorry, no idea at all. I was just visiting the Debian site.

Rats. It might still be worth asking them though, just in case they
found a good solution.

Anyone know the Debian webmasters? From memory, some of the translation
volunteers do stuff with/for them.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:36:42 +0800 Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> wrote:

Alvaro Herrera wrote:

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:42:22PM +0800, Justin Clift wrote:

Alvaro, do you know how (or if) the people that do stuff for the Debian
website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?

All the translators do know HTML. And I wanna propose to use the internationalization like Debian Project, eg, using Languages capabilities of Apache Webserver.
Basically we have:
index.html.en
index.html.pt-br
index.html.es
index.html.se
...

Anyone know the Debian webmasters? From memory, some of the translation
volunteers do stuff with/for them.

I think this is not too hard to translate just the text in the HTML. What do you guys think?

PS> I redesigned the main website and wanna propose it in the end of the afternoon.

Regards,

--
Euler Taveira de Oliveira
euler (at) ufgnet.ufg.br
Desenvolvedor Web e Administrador de Sistemas
UFGNet - Universidade Federal de Goiás

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 02:28:30PM -0200, Euler Taveira de Oliveira wrote:

All the translators do know HTML. And I wanna propose to use the
internationalization like Debian Project, eg, using Languages
capabilities of Apache Webserver.

If the text could be automatically generated from a DocBook source, then
the translation could be handled by the same mechanism the KDE guys use:
a Docbook -> PO -> Docbook tool. Translator don't have to know HTML;
they just use KBabel or gtranslator, etc. That's the theory at least ...

I've mentioned this already regarding documentation translations, maybe
the idea can be useful here.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Right now the sectors on the hard disk run clockwise, but I heard a rumor that
you can squeeze 0.2% more throughput by running them counterclockwise.
It's worth the effort. Recommended." (Gerry Pourwelle)

Euler, Alvaro,

All the translators do know HTML. And I wanna propose to use the
internationalization like Debian Project, eg, using Languages capabilities
of Apache Webserver. Basically we have:

I manage PostgreSQL's team of translators for advocacy/website stuff, and I
can tell you that they don't all, or even most, know enough HTML to handle
even a simple table.

If the text could be automatically generated from a DocBook source, then
the translation could be handled by the same mechanism the KDE guys use:
a Docbook -> PO -> Docbook tool. Translator don't have to know HTML;
they just use KBabel or gtranslator, etc. That's the theory at least ...

This is a fine idea if we can come up with a tool which is available on all
major platforms: win95, winNT/2k, Mac OS X, Linux and BSD. Otherwise, a web
form will be a *lot* easier to manage.

Personally, even when I'm editing something which someone else has marked up I
find editing wiki-markup to be *much* easier. In HTML, it's far two easy to
accidentially paste over a closing tag or a bracket and screw up the whole
page. This will be even more the case if you want to adopt the stricter
XHTML.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

From: Michael Glaesemann <grzm@myrealbox.com>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:34:28 AM Asia/Tokyo
To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:11 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:

accidentially paste over a closing tag or a bracket and screw up the
whole
page. This will be even more the case if you want to adopt the
stricter
XHTML.

Practically, only screw up in terms of whether or not the page still
validates. Most browsers, with their built-in forgiveness that lets
them handle the 95% of invalid markup that's out there, won't break any
more with invalid XHTML than they would with the same (invalid) HTML.
There are a few browsers that change their behavior slightly depending
on the document declaration, but from what I gather, the differences a
slight. And at the extreme, I don't know of any browers that attempt to
validate the page against the DTD and refuse to display if if they
don't.

This isn't an excuse to not write the best markup possible, of course.

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 10:11:35AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:

Euler, Alvaro,

If the text could be automatically generated from a DocBook source, then
the translation could be handled by the same mechanism the KDE guys use:
a Docbook -> PO -> Docbook tool. Translator don't have to know HTML;
they just use KBabel or gtranslator, etc. That's the theory at least ...

This is a fine idea if we can come up with a tool which is available on all
major platforms: win95, winNT/2k, Mac OS X, Linux and BSD. Otherwise, a web
form will be a *lot* easier to manage.

Personally, as a seasoned translator ;-), I find a web form practically
unusable compared to a PO catalog editor. I think the pgAdmin guys have
some indication of a program that works on Windows. I dunno about Mac
OS X. Gnome and KDE both have good tools that work on Linux, BSD and
some others.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Aprende a avergonzarte m�s ante ti que ante los dem�s" (Dem�crito)