PGXN Development Project

This was just posted to announce. Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

I personally had no knowledge of this, which is fine, but don't expect
me to get excited about it, except to consider it a threat to a
community-lead extension site.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

David E. Wheeler wrote:

I'm pleased to announce the launch of the PGXN development project.

http://www.pgxn.org/

PGXN, the PostgreSQL Extension Network, is modelled on CPAN, the Perl community's archive of "all things Perl." PGXN will provide four major pieces of infrastructure to the PostgreSQL community:

* An upload and distribution infrastructure for extension developers
* A centralized index and API of distribution metadata
* A website for searching extensions and perusing their documentation
* A command-line client for downloading, testing, and installing extensions

We have started the fundraising phase of the project now. Thanks to founding sponsors myYearbook.com and PostgreSQL Experts, Inc., we're already 2/5 of the way to our goal. Complete details of the project -- including the specification, implementation plan, and fundraising FAQ -- are on the site.

Best,

David
PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.

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Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce. Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

I personally had no knowledge of this, which is fine, but don't expect
me to get excited about it, except to consider it a threat to a
community-lead extension site.

This *is* for the community, Bruce. There was extensive discussion of my original proposal back in January:

http://www.mail-archive.com/pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org/msg143645.html

I welcome all contributions from the community. I want it to be a success for PostgreSQL. But note that it doesn't have to be started as a -hackers project (any more than pg_upgrade did). CPAN, for example, was created because Jarkko had an itch. He scratched it. I'm doing the same here.

Best,

David

Then you weren't paying attention at the devlopers' meeting. It's the
bottom item on
<http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PgCon_2010_Developer_Meeting#Development_Priorities_for_9.1&gt;

cheers

andrew

Bruce Momjian wrote:

On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 16:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce. Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

I personally had no knowledge of this, which is fine, but don't expect
me to get excited about it, except to consider it a threat to a
community-lead extension site.

There was a long discussion about this Bruce. On hackers. David even
sent out an RFC:

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2010-01/msg00692.php

I, for one am +1 (although I do note a hint of PGX in PGXN :P).

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:

This was just posted to announce. Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

The chapter of PGXN as announced here is to build a network of
extensions, the ones I'm working on for core. It's the next step. You
want the ability to easily install, drop, dump and restore extensions,
then you want some sources of them that you can trust and from where
it's easy to fetch and build. That's the "network".

We're also working on the grotty details about how to best work together
at the moment, the separation of work had been agreed on before PgCon
and confirmed in Ottawa.

Regards,
--
dim

On 6/15/10 1:12 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce. Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

It is possible for things to be community and not originate in the Core
Team, Bruce. Just because you personally are not involved doesn't
automatically make a project "enemy of the community".

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 01:25:33PM -0700, David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce. Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

I personally had no knowledge of this, which is fine, but don't expect
me to get excited about it, except to consider it a threat to a
community-lead extension site.

This *is* for the community, Bruce. There was extensive discussion of my original proposal back in January:

http://www.mail-archive.com/pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org/msg143645.html

I welcome all contributions from the community. I want it to be a success for PostgreSQL. But note that it doesn't have to be started as a -hackers project (any more than pg_upgrade did). CPAN, for example, was created because Jarkko had an itch. He scratched it. I'm doing the same here.

One issue that will come up: this is clearly a more commercial
enterprise than Jarkko's CPAN (and the internet is a different place
than it was in 1995) You pushed money right to the front with this, so
that will lead to certain questions concerning ownership of what
arguably should be community resources: the IP of the aggregate index,
for example.

I'm a big believer in JFDI as well - just be aware that toes will get
stepped on, and require some bandages.

Ross
--
Ross Reedstrom, Ph.D. reedstrm@rice.edu
Systems Engineer & Admin, Research Scientist phone: 713-348-6166
The Connexions Project http://cnx.org fax: 713-348-3665
Rice University MS-375, Houston, TX 77005
GPG Key fingerprint = F023 82C8 9B0E 2CC6 0D8E F888 D3AE 810E 88F0 BEDE

I, for one am +1 (although I do note a hint of PGX in PGXN :P).

Yeah, we tried to come up with a name which didn't have "PGX" in it, for
obvious reasons. However, everything we could come up with (here and on
IRC) was very contrived. And "PGXN" does dovetail nicely with "PGXS",
which it utilizes.

I also hope to fundraise for Dimitri's work; if we could get both of
those projects completed in 2011, it would really change things for the
Postgres world, I think.

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Ross J. Reedstrom wrote:

One issue that will come up: this is clearly a more commercial
enterprise than Jarkko's CPAN (and the internet is a different place
than it was in 1995) You pushed money right to the front with this, so
that will lead to certain questions concerning ownership of what
arguably should be community resources: the IP of the aggregate index,
for example.

I'm a big believer in JFDI as well - just be aware that toes will get
stepped on, and require some bandages.

I have bandages. And a machete. ;-P

Seriously, it's not commercial. I really want to do it and I can't really afford to do it in my meager spare time. Those with sore toes will be asked to wait and see.

Thanks,

David

On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 14:16 -0700, David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Ross J. Reedstrom wrote:

One issue that will come up: this is clearly a more commercial
enterprise than Jarkko's CPAN (and the internet is a different place
than it was in 1995) You pushed money right to the front with this, so
that will lead to certain questions concerning ownership of what
arguably should be community resources: the IP of the aggregate index,
for example.

I'm a big believer in JFDI as well - just be aware that toes will get
stepped on, and require some bandages.

I have bandages. And a machete. ;-P

Seriously, it's not commercial. I really want to do it and I can't really afford to do it in my meager spare time. Those with sore toes will be asked to wait and see.

To help alleviate some of the "commercial" fears, I would suggest an
entry in the FAQ for the project that states the following:

Where the source code will be hosted (for the project itself)
What license it will be released under

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

P.S. If you can monetize this, go for it.

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On 6/15/10 2:06 PM, Ross J. Reedstrom wrote:

You pushed money right to the front with this, so
that will lead to certain questions concerning ownership of what
arguably should be community resources: the IP of the aggregate index,
for example.

Oh, good point. We clearly need a FAQ item about that. Or two or
three. Working on it.

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Ross J. Reedstrom wrote:

One issue that will come up: this is clearly a more commercial
enterprise than Jarkko's CPAN (and the internet is a different place
than it was in 1995) You pushed money right to the front with this, so
that will lead to certain questions concerning ownership of what
arguably should be community resources: the IP of the aggregate index,
for example.

I'm a big believer in JFDI as well - just be aware that toes will get
stepped on, and require some bandages.

I have bandages. And a machete. ;-P

Seriously, it's not commercial. I really want to do it and I can't
really afford to do it in my meager spare time. Those with sore toes
will be asked to wait and see.

I totaly agreed you need funding, and you are very well qualified to do
this, and it is a badly needed facility.

The problem I had is that the effort appeared to be "I am creating my
own sandbox, fund me" (particularly the FAQ), which is probably not what
you wanted to convey. I understand adjustments are being made and if
you can clarify how this is going to relate to the community in terms of
input, oversight, and management, it might be something the entire
community can get behind, and help fund.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:

This was just posted to announce.  Seems the community now has to
compete with another extension-based infrastructure if we ever get
around to developing one of our own.

I personally had no knowledge of this, which is fine, but don't expect
me to get excited about it, except to consider it a threat to a
community-lead extension site.

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN. That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN. That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

I didn't care for it, personally. "Pee-Gan" sounds weird to my ear. I prefer "pee-gee-ex-en." But you can go for "pixin" or "pigskin" if you'd rather. ;-)

My bike shed is chartreuse,

David

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

I totaly agreed you need funding, and you are very well qualified to do
this, and it is a badly needed facility.

Thanks.

The problem I had is that the effort appeared to be "I am creating my
own sandbox, fund me" (particularly the FAQ), which is probably not what
you wanted to convey. I understand adjustments are being made and if
you can clarify how this is going to relate to the community in terms of
input, oversight, and management, it might be something the entire
community can get behind, and help fund.

Agreed. How's this?

http://pgxn.org/faq.html

h/t Josh Berkus.

Best,

David

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 03:42:59PM -0700, David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

I totaly agreed you need funding, and you are very well qualified to do
this, and it is a badly needed facility.

Thanks.

The problem I had is that the effort appeared to be "I am creating my
own sandbox, fund me" (particularly the FAQ), which is probably not what
you wanted to convey. I understand adjustments are being made and if
you can clarify how this is going to relate to the community in terms of
input, oversight, and management, it might be something the entire
community can get behind, and help fund.

Agreed. How's this?

http://pgxn.org/faq.html

+1 Excellent, actually.

Ross
--
Ross Reedstrom, Ph.D. reedstrm@rice.edu
Systems Engineer & Admin, Research Scientist phone: 713-348-6166
The Connexions Project http://cnx.org fax: 713-348-3665
Rice University MS-375, Houston, TX 77005
GPG Key fingerprint = F023 82C8 9B0E 2CC6 0D8E F888 D3AE 810E 88F0 BEDE

David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

I totaly agreed you need funding, and you are very well qualified to do
this, and it is a badly needed facility.

Thanks.

The problem I had is that the effort appeared to be "I am creating my
own sandbox, fund me" (particularly the FAQ), which is probably not what
you wanted to convey. I understand adjustments are being made and if
you can clarify how this is going to relate to the community in terms of
input, oversight, and management, it might be something the entire
community can get behind, and help fund.

Agreed. How's this?

http://pgxn.org/faq.html

That is something everyone can get behind! Great.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN. That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

I didn't care for it, personally. "Pee-Gan" sounds weird to my ear. I prefer "pee-gee-ex-en." But you can go for "pixin" or "pigskin" if you'd rather. ;-)

My bike shed is chartreuse,

heh I'm with Robert on that PGXN just sounds and speels weird - PGAN was
much easier ;)

Stefan

On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 16:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce.

I notice you mention that this was just posted to the ANNOUNCE list.

Who is it that moderates the announce list?

The postings made by David Fetter on 13 June and postings by David
Wheeler on 15 June were both approved within an hour of posting.

Critically important posting by Lacey Powers on Monday, approximately 40
hours early was held in the queue.

Also, an item by Koichi Suzuki was held in the queue since 8 June, and
also an item by myself was held in the queue since 11 June.

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

--
Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:

David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN.  That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

I didn't care for it, personally. "Pee-Gan" sounds weird to my ear. I
prefer "pee-gee-ex-en." But you can go for "pixin" or "pigskin" if you'd
rather. ;-)

My bike shed is chartreuse,

heh I'm with Robert on that PGXN just sounds and speels weird - PGAN was
much easier ;)

+1

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:27, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 16:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce.

I notice you mention that this was just posted to the ANNOUNCE list.

Who is it that moderates the announce list?

I can't answer this part, just wanted to add a comment below.

The postings made by David Fetter on 13 June and postings by David
Wheeler on 15 June were both approved within an hour of posting.

In the case of Fetter at least, I think he's whitelisted and his posts
are never moderated - since he posts the PWN every week.

Critically important posting by Lacey Powers on Monday, approximately 40
hours early was held in the queue.

Also, an item by Koichi Suzuki was held in the queue since 8 June, and
also an item by myself was held in the queue since 11 June.

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Probably - someone else can hopefully comment on who moderates that one now.

--
Magnus Hagander
Me: http://www.hagander.net/
Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

2010/6/16 David E. Wheeler <david.wheeler@pgexperts.com>:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN.  That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

I didn't care for it, personally. "Pee-Gan" sounds weird to my ear. I prefer "pee-gee-ex-en." But you can go for "pixin" or "pigskin" if you'd rather. ;-)

PGAN is very sweet in French, where PGXN is an horror

My bike shed is chartreuse,

David

--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

--
Cédric Villemain 2ndQuadrant
http://2ndQuadrant.fr/ PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support

On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:37 AM, Dave Page wrote:

heh I'm with Robert on that PGXN just sounds and speels weird - PGAN was
much easier ;)

+1

Seriously? To me, “pee-gan” just didn't sound nice. And the acronym, “PostgreSQL Add-on Network,” wasn't as good, since it's mainly extension-focused. I guess it could be “PostgreSQL Archive Network,” going back to the CPAN example. Downside to that is that it likely won't distribute PostgreSQL itself.

I thought “PGXN” sounded more official-ish, less cute. And I don't mind “pixin” as the pronunciation.

Perhaps I could get on board with PGAN if we follow Cédric’s example and pronounce it “pe-zhan.”

Honestly, I didn't realize anyone was attached to “PGAN.”

Frankly, I blame whoever named PostgreSQL itself and came up with the short version, “PG.” Nothing but pigs out of that.

Best,

David

David E. Wheeler wrote:

Honestly, I didn't realize anyone was attached to ?PGAN.?

Frankly, I blame whoever named PostgreSQL itself and came up with the
short version, ?PG.? Nothing but pigs out of that.

I finally understand how pig-squeal is a short-form of PostgreSQL
(PG-SQL). :-O Yet another variation. I guess it could be worse.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 09:03 +0200, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:

David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN. That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

I didn't care for it, personally. "Pee-Gan" sounds weird to my ear. I prefer "pee-gee-ex-en." But you can go for "pixin" or "pigskin" if you'd rather. ;-)

My bike shed is chartreuse,

heh I'm with Robert on that PGXN just sounds and speels weird - PGAN was
much easier ;)

I actually like PGXN. PGXN is marketable. Yeah that may not be what
-hackers are after but if I stand up in front of a Fortune 500 company
and say, "We have PGXN" it sounds a heck of a lot better that PGAN.

Joshua D. Drake

Stefan

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 13:05 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:27, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 16:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

This was just posted to announce.

I notice you mention that this was just posted to the ANNOUNCE list.

Who is it that moderates the announce list?

I can't answer this part, just wanted to add a comment below.

Well I am one.

I can tell you that one of the problems I run into is that if I don't
see it during my normal business day, I won't moderate it. So if you
send during your timezone, and I am the only one watching...

If it comes through during my business day, I moderate immediately
(assuming I am reading email)

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 09:03 +0200, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:

David E. Wheeler wrote:

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

I think this project is a great idea, and I think as a community we
ought to be behind it 100%.

However, I do wonder what happened to the original name, which IIRC
was PGAN. That seems easier to pronounce, remember, ...

I didn't care for it, personally. "Pee-Gan" sounds weird to my ear. I prefer "pee-gee-ex-en." But you can go for "pixin" or "pigskin" if you'd rather. ;-)

My bike shed is chartreuse,

heh I'm with Robert on that PGXN just sounds and speels weird - PGAN was
much easier ;)

I actually like PGXN. PGXN is marketable. Yeah that may not be what
-hackers are after but if I stand up in front of a Fortune 500 company
and say, "We have PGXN" it sounds a heck of a lot better that PGAN.

I think the attraction of PGAN is that people have some hope of guessing
what it means (CPAN/PGAN), and because C and G look similar, there is
even more an association, e.g. swap C and P, change C to G, and viola.

The attraction of PGXN is that it looks like PGXS.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 13:22 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

I actually like PGXN. PGXN is marketable. Yeah that may not be what
-hackers are after but if I stand up in front of a Fortune 500 company
and say, "We have PGXN" it sounds a heck of a lot better that PGAN.

I think the attraction of PGAN is that people have some hope of guessing
what it means (CPAN/PGAN), and because C and G look similar, there is
even more an association, e.g. swap C and P, change C to G, and viola.

The attraction of PGXN is that it looks like PGXS.

Again, to hackers :). I am looking at this differently. If I stand up
and say,

"PostgreSQL has PGXN, the PostgreSQL Extension Network"

Versus

"PostgreSQL has PGAN, P can that Can, I am Pee gannning." What?

Anyway, a name is a name. We are PostgreSQL after all.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M. This
means that you can get your announce through quickly if you follow up a
posting to that list with a private e-mail to one of them; otherwise,
stuff tends to lag for several days. Or there are a couple of
pass-throughs, for release announcements and PWN, which are not moderated.

I've asked several times that we add additional moderators for -announce.

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 10:34 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M.

And me, and devrim and a number of others.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

And me, and devrim and a number of others.

Hmmm. Yet nothing seems to get approved unless I personal e-mail Marc.
Why?

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 10:34 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M.

And me, and devrim and a number of others.

I think adding new moderators who are regualy reading emails and
living in different time zones is an idea. If nobody in +0900 tinme
zone(Japan), I'd like to be an additional moderator.
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp

I don't moderate -announce.

--
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL DBA @ Akinon/Markafoni, Red Hat Certified Engineer
devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
http://www.gunduz.org Twitter: http://twitter.com/devrimgunduz

17.Haz.2010 tarihinde 00:58 saatinde, "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 15:01 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

And me, and devrim and a number of others.

Hmmm. Yet nothing seems to get approved unless I personal e-mail Marc.
Why?

I approved stuff today and yesterday. I didn't the week before because I
was in Chicago. I also normally don't moderate on the weekends. I was
the one that approved the PGXN email for example.

Joshua D. Drake

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 01:17 +0300, Devrim GUNDUZ wrote:

I don't moderate -announce.

Sorry. I thought you did.

JD

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Hmmm. Yet nothing seems to get approved unless I personal e-mail Marc.
Why?

I approved stuff today and yesterday. I didn't the week before because I
was in Chicago. I also normally don't moderate on the weekends. I was
the one that approved the PGXN email for example.

This week isn't special. Stuff going to -announce frequently gets held
for days. I know, people bug me about getting it approved. So there's
clearly an issue either with the number of moderators, their time zones,
or coordination.

I'm thinking I need to be on the moderator list just because I'm one of
the people who get personal e-mail when something is delayed. However,
that *won't* solve the delay issue; I already moderate 3 other lists and
won't be very attentive.

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 16:08 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Hmmm. Yet nothing seems to get approved unless I personal e-mail Marc.
Why?

I approved stuff today and yesterday. I didn't the week before because I
was in Chicago. I also normally don't moderate on the weekends. I was
the one that approved the PGXN email for example.

This week isn't special. Stuff going to -announce frequently gets held
for days. I know, people bug me about getting it approved. So there's
clearly an issue either with the number of moderators, their time zones,
or coordination.

I am not arguing delays here. :) I am just saying that I regularly
moderate but there are rules around my moderation just like anyone else.
I like Tatuso's idea.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Josh Berkus wrote:

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M. This
means that you can get your announce through quickly if you follow up a
posting to that list with a private e-mail to one of them; otherwise, stuff
tends to lag for several days. Or there are a couple of pass-throughs, for
release announcements and PWN, which are not moderated.

I've asked several times that we add additional moderators for -announce.

Anyone volunteering ... ? Adding is simple enough ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A.
scrappy@hub.org http://www.hub.org

Yahoo:yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ:7615664 MSN:scrappy@hub.org

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 10:34 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M.

And me, and devrim and a number of others.

I think adding new moderators who are regualy reading emails and
living in different time zones is an idea. If nobody in +0900 tinme
zone(Japan), I'd like to be an additional moderator.

Sounds great to me ... please confirm what email address you wish to use
for this and I'll get you added ...

Thank you ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A.
scrappy@hub.org http://www.hub.org

Yahoo:yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ:7615664 MSN:scrappy@hub.org

On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 10:34 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M.

And me, and devrim and a number of others.

I think adding new moderators who are regualy reading emails and
living in different time zones is an idea. If nobody in +0900 tinme
zone(Japan), I'd like to be an additional moderator.

Sounds great to me ... please confirm what email address you wish to use
for this and I'll get you added ...

Thanks.

ishii@postgresql.org

please.
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 08:29, Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Josh Berkus wrote:

Why is there significant delay on important posts, yet some posts go
almost straight though? Every time I use Announce my posts are delayed
for about 4-5 days.

Why do some posts jump the queue, appearing to imply the moderator is
being selective in releasing some, yet not others?

Do we need some more moderators?

Yes.

Currently the only moderators for -announce are Marc and Greg S-M.  This
means that you can get your announce through quickly if you follow up a
posting to that list with a private e-mail to one of them; otherwise, stuff
tends to lag for several days.  Or there are a couple of pass-throughs, for
release announcements and PWN, which are not moderated.

I've asked several times that we add additional moderators for -announce.

Anyone volunteering ... ?  Adding is simple enough ...

In principle I would, and I have before, but "the way that we do
moderation" really doesn't scale to multiple moderators, and I'm not
willing to expend my time for pointless work.

What I'm referring to? The fact that at least last time I was looking
at this, most (all other?) moderators *only* approve things. And never
reject them, instead letting the timeout take care of things thatn
shouldn't be posted. That means that if there are 10 moderators, every
one of them needs to look at all the mails and ignore them. In cases
of other lists where I moderate, people reject spam when they see it,
which means that once I go in there I only see stuff that nobody else
has already processed. Which makes for less double (or ten-double)
work...

(I still do moderate some lists, but they are the smaller and more
specific ones for pgeu and such, where there is only one or in worst
case two moderators)

--
Magnus Hagander
Me: http://www.hagander.net/
Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

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What I'm referring to? The fact that at least last time I was looking
at this, most (all other?) moderators *only* approve things. And never
reject them, instead letting the timeout take care of things thatn
shouldn't be posted.

Certainly not all, becuase I don't do things that way. And certainly
not -announce, because I don't think Marc works that way either.

As far as the original complaint, if one suspects something is stuck
in the queue, a message to #postgresql might be the quickest way
to get someone's attention, followed by an email to -www.

But my all means, let's add more mods, especially to -announce as
Marc, Rob, and I are all in the same time zone.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
End Point Corporation http://www.endpoint.com/
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201006170920
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote:

What I'm referring to? The fact that at least last time I was looking at
this, most (all other?) moderators *only* approve things. And never
reject them, instead letting the timeout take care of things thatn
shouldn't be posted. That means that if there are 10 moderators, every
one of them needs to look at all the mails and ignore them. In cases of
other lists where I moderate, people reject spam when they see it, which
means that once I go in there I only see stuff that nobody else has
already processed. Which makes for less double (or ten-double) work...

I sooooooo agree here ... and to make matters worse, when I go through all
of the groups once a week, I find a half dozen or more postings that
'slipped through the cracks' that should have been approved, but weren't
... but to get there, I have to weed through *hundreds* of postings to
find them ...

But, I think you and I are exceptions here, in that we use the web
interface for moderation, and not just email ... although I'm not sure why
its so far to do a 'Reply' and type 'Reject' since ppl have to have
already checked the body of the message to now it shouldn't be approved
... most of the work is already done by that point ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A.
scrappy@hub.org http://www.hub.org

Yahoo:yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ:7615664 MSN:scrappy@hub.org

On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 13:22 +0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

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Hash: RIPEMD160

What I'm referring to? The fact that at least last time I was looking
at this, most (all other?) moderators *only* approve things. And never
reject them, instead letting the timeout take care of things thatn
shouldn't be posted.

Certainly not all, becuase I don't do things that way. And certainly
not -announce, because I don't think Marc works that way either.

Uhh the complaint above is bogus. I know I don't just approve things
either.

As far as the original complaint, if one suspects something is stuck
in the queue, a message to #postgresql might be the quickest way
to get someone's attention, followed by an email to -www.

Agreed.

But my all means, let's add more mods, especially to -announce as
Marc, Rob, and I are all in the same time zone.

Agreed.

Joshua D. Drake

Marc Fournier wrote:

But, I think you and I are exceptions here, in that we use the web interface for moderation, and not just email ...

Is it possible that the ones that use email for moderating the lists have aggressive spam filters? Then they might not receive most of the list postings that should be rejected…

(I don't really know how the list-moderating system works, but this occurred to me as a possibility.)

Excerpts from Marc G. Fournier's message of jue jun 17 10:47:41 -0400 2010:

I sooooooo agree here ... and to make matters worse, when I go through all
of the groups once a week, I find a half dozen or more postings that
'slipped through the cracks' that should have been approved, but weren't
... but to get there, I have to weed through *hundreds* of postings to
find them ...

But, I think you and I are exceptions here, in that we use the web
interface for moderation, and not just email ... although I'm not sure why
its so far to do a 'Reply' and type 'Reject' since ppl have to have
already checked the body of the message to now it shouldn't be approved
... most of the work is already done by that point ...

hey, count me as an exception as well. I do reject all spam that gets
to me (-hackers and -committers these days only, plus -es-ayuda). I
moderate *everything* I get by email -- but I never visit the website.

If some stuff is still queued after I go through routine moderation,
it's only because I didn't get it (remember there's a setting that says
"only send to this many moderators", so no one should be swamped).

I shared a recipe that allows Mutt to do one-keystroke moderation (saves
a lot of work), and I recently wrote another one for Sup-mail which is
what I'm currently using -- if anyone is interested in that one, let me
know.

--
Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

Anyone volunteering ... ? Adding is simple enough ...

I can help with moderating announce, having now gotten used to doing the
similar chore for things submitted to the web site for a few months.

--
Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.us