Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

On 16 September 2011 16:24, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't get
published - on which
I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me?

I don't fear to make decisions on my own - but speaking for the whole
project without
getting feedback - is a worse feeling.

Usually, when I feel unsure how I should decide I just bother Peter - but I
would prefer
to have some more ppl in my background.

I for one would definitely be interested in reading such a list.

Cheers,
BJ

On 16.09.2011 09:24, Susanne Ebrecht wrote:

The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of
drafts that needs
decisions.

I am not allowed to share the drafts in public. Because the drafts are
confidential.

I think that's a big part of the problem. It's hard to get excited about
something if you don't know what's happening.

But I am allowed to share the drafts with the group of ppl who are
supporting me.
Of course I am allowed to discuss the drafts with my folk before I will
give my votes and comments.

Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary
of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's
people in the community with interests in particular topics, they could
contact you and get involved.

Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't
get published - on which
I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me?

I could join such a mailing list if you create one, but it would
probably be better if specific topics could be discussed on
pgsql-hackers. Perhaps this is something you should bring up in the
committee. I understand that the committee doesn't want to open its work
to the whole world, but I also don't see why work-in-progress features
couldn't be discussed in the public.

FWIW, I'm very glad you're on the committee! Even though I have no idea
what's going on there, it gives me a warm feeling that there's someone
on the committee who knows PostgreSQL. If someone proposes something
that would hurt PostgreSQL, like syntax that we already use for
something else, I know you're going to speak up.

--
Heikki Linnakangas
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
<susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee.

With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an
employee of MySQL. We've had a number of discussions both online and
at one of the more recent developer meetings, and even approved
funding around having (if I remember correctly) Peter or Simon
represent us on the committee.

Always, when I suggested to talk about my work in the SQL committee on
community
events, a committee rejected it. This just showed me that nobody really has
interests
in my work.

I now learned that such a event committee not always is able to estimate
interests correct.

An event committee is not approving talks because the work is
important to the community - they are approving talks that will be of
interest to the conference audience. In the case of PG Conference
Europe which I suspect you are alluding to there were a significant
number of talks submitted that would be of far more interest and
benefit to our primary audience of end users.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
<susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts
that needs
decisions.

So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought
up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special
syntax drafted into the sql standard?

merlin

Dave,

On 16.09.2011 14:33, Dave Page wrote:

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
<susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee.

With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an
employee of MySQL.

Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for taking care of
Postgresql - taking care of MySQL others did.

An event committee is not approving talks because the work is
important to the community - they are approving talks that will be of
interest to the conference audience.

You exactly hit the point here - where I had another opinion for what a
community event also is.
But doesn't matter.

As I said - I just learned.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Susanne Ebrecht
<susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee.

With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an
employee of MySQL.

Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for taking care of
Postgresql - taking care of MySQL others did.

My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents
PostgreSQL.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Excerpts from Susanne Ebrecht's message of vie sep 16 03:24:58 -0300 2011:

Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't
get published - on which
I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me?

It's certainly possible to create a private mailing list to support this
idea. How would the membership be approved, however, is not clear to
me. Would we let only well-known names from other pgsql lists into it?

(I, for one, had no idea you were in the SQL committee.)

--
Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Heikki,

On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote:

Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary
of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if
there's people in the community with interests in particular topics,
they could contact you and get involved.

Of course it is. I just not wanted to spam hackers.

FWIW, I'm very glad you're on the committee! Even though I have no
idea what's going on there, it gives me a warm feeling that there's
someone on the committee who knows PostgreSQL. If someone proposes
something that would hurt PostgreSQL, like syntax that we already use
for something else, I know you're going to speak up.

Thanks for the bouquet. This comment let me feel better.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com

On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote:

My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents
PostgreSQL.

Dave,

the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you.
Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent
your country.
For example ANSI offered Sun to send some experts.
If BSI wants your expertise then they would ask you or your company
(don't know how BSI works internally).
Germany ask for my PostgreSQL expertise.

Of course Peter always was and still is in my background.

Finland just has no active group yet - afair Peter is working on that
problem.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com

On 16-09-2011 10:26, Susanne Ebrecht wrote:

On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote:

Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary of
things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's people
in the community with interests in particular topics, they could contact you
and get involved.

Of course it is. I just not wanted to spam hackers.

But if it is community interest, of course it will bother no one here...

--
Euler Taveira de Oliveira - Timbira http://www.timbira.com.br/
PostgreSQL: Consultoria, Desenvolvimento, Suporte 24x7 e Treinamento

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
<susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote:

My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents
PostgreSQL.

Dave,

the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you.
Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent your
country.
For example ANSI offered Sun to send some experts.
If BSI wants your expertise then they would ask you or your company (don't
know how BSI works internally).
Germany ask for my PostgreSQL expertise.

Of course Peter always was and still is in my background.

Finland just has no active group yet - afair Peter is working on that
problem.

You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL
on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the
point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making
other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.

I'd be glad to see us have representation, but I do not believe we
have had any yet, and whatever you have done so far (which may or may
not be good for us) really doesn't count because it hasn't involved
the project in any way.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 16.09.2011 14:38, Merlin Moncure wrote:

So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought
up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special
syntax drafted into the sql standard?

Yes and no.

You first need to convince your country and then - as country
representative - you need to convince the other countries on ISO level.

You have country based sql standard groups in several countries. The
well known groups are ANSI for USA,
BSI for UK, DIN for Germany, JTC for Japan and so on.

Inner the country you usually represent your own product.

Usually the country based group members are a mix of research folk (e.g.
universities) and DB-System companies placed inner the country. Which
experts they will let in and which not depends on the country based
group.

It is good here to be in a smaller country - because the groups are
smaller and you can get more of your ideas up to ISO.

All the country based groups together are ISO.

In ISO every country just has a single vote.
This means - even when your country suggested what you wanted then it
could happen that there are enough countries against it so that your
idea won't get into the standard.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com

On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote:

other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.

Dave,

I exactly did this with Peter.
Afair, I once was told it is enough to report to Peter.
And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
<susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote:

other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.

Dave,

I exactly did this with Peter.
Afair, I once was told it is enough to report to Peter.
And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

-hackers is exactly where we would discuss issues related to
development and design of PostgreSQL.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports
before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com

On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:

And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports
before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql.

Well Susanne said that the drafts are not public information so maybe
the things that *could* end up in a draft shouldn't be either, if so i
agree with the idea of creating a private list for that

--
Jaime Casanova         www.2ndQuadrant.com
Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación

On fre, 2011-09-16 at 07:38 -0500, Merlin Moncure wrote:

So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought
up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special
syntax drafted into the sql standard?

Don't expect to take a PostgreSQL-specific feature, say, CREATE RULE or
CREATE AGGREGATE, and make it into an ISO standard. The "big boys"
still run the show, and it's unlikely that something gets accepted
without buy in from one of the major proprietary vendors. Besides,
writing actual standards is difficult and time-consuming work. But what
you can accomplish is to mold upcoming features so that they don't clash
with PostgreSQL, or better yet benefit PostgreSQL. Also, you can mold
future PostgreSQL features in the converse way.

On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote:

You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL
on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the
point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making
other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.

Let's not get into legalese. I don't think Susanne's point was the she
was the sole and authoritative representative of the project. An
alternative way to phrase this might be that she has been the only
participant in committee meetings that has had PostgreSQL's concerns on
her mind.

On Sunday, September 18, 2011, Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> wrote:

On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote:

You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL
on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the
point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making
other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.

Let's not get into legalese. I don't think Susanne's point was the she
was the sole and authoritative representative of the project. An
alternative way to phrase this might be that she has been the only
participant in committee meetings that has had PostgreSQL's concerns on
her mind.

That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should be
communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works outside the
project is of no use at all.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company